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[Wulf] Domino: not really... it's not crime that's nessecarily worse further away, it's the will to conform to the rules of the empire's leaders
[Mentat] And the ability of your empire to enforce it's rules...
[Wulf] Domino: i.e.- there aren't more murders in Alaska than DC, but there may be more resentment about federal control.
[Thue] maybe a question of balancing the different techs. Upgrading would be cheeper, and your new musketeer would be worse than a good bowman
[Domino] Thats what I ment.... The govornment will have to choose to improve the locals or improve the "far-outs"... ofcourse they choose the local big cities since thats where they mean the future lies
[Thue] Anyway, it would be more realistic
[Wulf] I also think that corruption should be different in a capital... i.e.- corruption in a normal city hurts that city, but corruption in the capital would hurt the whole empire.
[Tarkus] good point
[Laertus] I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but I'd like to see a little more balance to the Leo's Wonder. I would prefer if that wonder let you pay for field upgrades of your units similar to getting newer tech in SMAC. I've seen many games that end when everyone concedes as soon as someone builds Leo's.
[Wulf] That may encourage people to move the capital... hehe... but then again, that's costly too
[Laertus] The ability to upgrade units in the field was one of the nicer improvements in SMAC over Civ2.
[Tarkus] Laertus - I agree!
[Wulf] Laertus: but is that realistic?
[Laertus] Is it any more realistic that building one workshop instantly improves every unit you own on the planet for free for several hundred years?
[Domino] Wulf: you cant compare in the us-system... All states got their own ppl controllig.... But if it was ONE govornment, like Norway who had cities all over the world, they would have much less controll over the cities far way
[Wulf] Does the computer AI upgrade units in SMAC?
[Domino] away,even
[Tarkus] Wulf - I beleive it is realistic, only units of the same base type can be upgraded to better units.
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[Wulf] Laertus: no... I'd rather see you bring the unit back, or airdrop or transport the upgrade parts to the unit in the field.
[Wulf] Domino: but that type of government (Norway, Rome, etc) either doesn't exist further down the chain of the game or hasn't gotten very large.
[Laertus] Wulf: Well, if there is a cost to upgrading, it could be based on the unit's distance from the wonder, signifying the cost of transporting material to the unit rather than having to bring the unit home.
[Tarkus] Norway has cities all over the world?
[Wulf] Laertus: good solution.
[Wulf] Perhaps a republic with states isn't a bad idea in CivIII?
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[Wulf] Maybe too complex though..
[Domino] Wulf: I agree... I didn't say you were wrong, just that it wouldn't be
[Domino] to make the game like the real world
[Tarkus] Maybe we could load the capital into subs!
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[Domino] Tarkus: uhm.. no.. it was a scenario =)
[Wulf] Tarkus: heheh...
[Tarkus] Then the people would know if they were far away or not...
[Guest39000] A good idea might be that you can be able of making cities under sea?
[Domino] damn... a word fell out... should have been "realistic" between my two lines
[Laertus] The one caution about unit upgrading in CivIII vs. SMAC is that I would like to see CivIII continue with easily identifiable new units. One of the problems with SMAC is that even when you upgrade units, they look so similar you sometimes can't tell old units from new.
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[ACS_DanQ] Gotta go folks!
[Domino] Guest: like in civ ctp? =)
[ACS_DanQ] TTYL,
[ACS_DanQ] DAN
[Tarkus]
[I like subs!! Was on one for 5 years...]
* Wulf waves to Dan
[Laertus] Thanks for all your help earlier Dan :)
[ACS_DanQ] You're welcome Laertus!
[Domino] Laertus: I know.. hate that... all the units look alike 0)
[DSquared] bye
[Laertus] Domino: The water cities were one of the very few features I actually liked about CTP.
[Domino] =)
[Tarkus] here here
[Wulf] yeah, I like those in SMAC too.
[Laertus] Sierra always does a good job on graphics, but their interface and gameplay is usually pretty shaky.
[Domino] the space-concept though wasn't that good
[Laertus] The space cities I found were too limiting and had little or no value to my civ in CTP.
[Mentat] Dynamic Tech trees for Civ3!!!
[Domino] yup
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[Wulf] Do you all think that the concept of costing for tech's is good?
[Domino] Another think I'd like to know... whats your higest score in civ2? =)
[Wulf] I mean, you know how much a tech costs,m and when its coming...
[Wulf] shouldn't it be a little more luck?
[Laertus] Mentat: I liked the option for blind research upon several generic paths in SMAC as well. That would solve the problem of folks aiming for specific early advantage advances that tend to unbalance some games.
[Wulf] Laertus: agree
[Domino] my highscore in civ2 is 2378 with a rating of 309% playing Deity....
[Wulf] Domino: I really don't pay attention to score.. I usually move on when its clear I'm going to win the game.
[Domino] =)
[Domino] I know... its just boring in the end anyways... just moving 60 hotwitzers from town to town =)
[Laertus] Wulf: Are you talking about something similar to Edison's Lab in CTP? Where you have a random chance each turn once its built to discover the tech you're working on?
[Mentat] I don't know, I think tech choosing should be an important part of the game.
[Wulf] Laertus: kinda... I mean in rl, scientists often have "breakthoughs"... its not like they say "In 5.2 years we'll have a cure to cancer, 2.6 if you double the money toward it"...
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[Stewart] Wulf - you mean the game should be random?
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[Laertus] True, true. Although increased research funding does help in some respects in real life.
[Wulf] Stewart: not entirely, just an element thrown in? I.e.- a discovery in 5-7 years or even 4-8... just so you can't "prepare" for it coming next turn.
[Wulf] Or even that the percentage chance of discovering it would increase each turn after you start... 5% the first year, 10% the next, etc.
[Wulf] that's pretty realistic
[Laertus] Wulf: I'd much prefer an element of chance like that to the current chance element which sometimes won't give you the option of choosing the next advance in a sequence just out of sheer luck.
[Thue] A little like in MOO2. Except that it has a minimum number of turns
[Stewart] Wulf - anything that smacks of LUCk in the game would decrease the amoung of skill needed. I would rather win a game knowing it was all due to my actions that having the computer decide a certain part of it for me.
[Wulf] Stewart: statistically, over the course of the game, (assuming a large tech tree) it would even out.
[Stewart] Well, what is the point of it then?
[Mentat] If the tech tree is balanced enough, it shouldn't matter too much which techs you choose, so long as you pick a concordant strategy.
[Laertus] Stewart: Sorry, I have to take the opposite view on that one. Luck would represent serendipity in the research tree. Some great advances have happened by accident and I feel that element needs to be retained.
[Domino] does anyone know if there's another civ-game in production?
[Wulf] Stewart: I just think it's silly to know that spending a few more gold this turn guarantees you you'll make a breakthrough next turn...
[Laertus] Domino: I've come to believe there's another Civ game in production every month:)
[Domino] heh =)
[Stewart] Wulf - if that is how the game plays, why not?
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[Wulf] Stewart: I'm just saying that isn't how the game _has_ to play. ;)
[Stewart] You introduce a random element...what is to stop someone reloading to get a decent time for technology? People do this with triremes sialing into sea, going in to goody huts, etc. This gives the "cheater" more scope to "cheat" without being "caught".
[Tarkus] Bye All...had fun!!
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[Wulf] Stewart: true, but what's the fun in that? I mean its already random to some degree...
[Thue] you could just have the amount of research determined at the start of te game
[Wulf] Stewart: and they can't just reload in a multiplayer game
[Thue] then th einformation would be in the savegame
[Wulf] Thue: hey true
[Thue] and reloading wouldn't help
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[Wulf] Thue: great idea.
[Mentat] Chess is 100% deterministic, and it's fun
[Thue] thanks :) not mine through. It works that way in SMAC
[Wulf] Thue: really? didn't know that
[Thue] I think. If you reload after a random event you get the same event again
[Wulf] Mentat: yes, it is. And so is chess on the computer. But I don't know if chess is what we're after?
[Mentat] Not quite
[Mentat] But, it is more satisfying the more skill involved
[Stewart] Thue - random events are just that: random. If you get something, you might get something different when you reload. Try doing it with a goody hut.
[Wulf] Mentat: I enjoy Risk... There's lots of skill involved (I almost always win at home) but there's also a random element... a known, statistically predictable random element.
[Laertus] I'd like to see a little more improvement in the AI as well. For example, in a solo game, with 1 human and 6 AI's, there is no logical reason why all 6 AI's immediately head toward your civ and begin attacking you. I've experienced this more often than I can recount. The AI's should have a higher level of concern for their immediate neighbors.
[Thue] I am talking about things like population boom, meteor storm and so on
[Stewart] True, Layertus. I think the Ai should improve as you grow in difficulty levels, rather than it being the same and superficial difficulty increasing.
[Laertus] Thue: Random disasters would certainly keep you on your toes and add a nice element to the game I think.
[Mentat] Hmmm, a different kind of skill: probabilistic.
[GP] did you steal iaian'z password?
[GP] oops
[Stewart] Random disasters would give you an excuse as to why you didn't win...
* Wulf lookis quizically at GP....
[Laertus] Well, heck. Most people can find an excuse for not winning now.
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[Wulf] LAertus: yep
[GP] GP (gilda radner voice) never miind
[Mentat] Random events can be pretty easily repeated with save game/do/quit schemes, simply by storing the random table index and seed.
[Laertus] I've been in games where initial placement of the capital city and/or initial settler unit can give someone a huge advantage right from the start.
[Wulf] Laertus: me too. in fact, I have a friend complaining about that in a game now. ;)
[Wulf] What do you all think of the governors in SMAC?
[Wulf] The way the player can use the AI to take over control of units / cities?
[Laertus] Wulf: The thing is, it is a GAME. I play to enjoy the competition, knowing I will not win every game. If you whine about all your bad luck it's a character flaw, not a game flaw:)
[Elcabos] More forms of Government on CIV3!!!!!!!
[Mentat] Of course, ideally optimal strategy should change from game to game.
[Wulf] Laertus: true,
[Laertus] Wulf: I find the governors in SMAC a bit idiotic. However, they're realistic, they make choices like real local governments do:)
[SG_kshah] brb
[Mentat] Stupid real local governments. :)
[Thue] Elcabos: I like the SMAC form of social engenering. many possibilities
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[Wulf] Laertus: do you think they've helped speed up the game for you at the more complex stages, or do they actually add work?
[Laertus] For example, you set a governor on defense while you're building the Citizen's Defense Force and every city with the defense governor will start building perimeter defenses, even though they'll be useless.
[ACS_Akula] I really liked the unit suport and alert staus system in ctp
[ACS_Akula] very realistic
[ACS_Akula] fighting a war ealier today
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[spider] ops
[Laertus] Wulf: The only use I've found for the governors in SMAC is in late game when I don't want to pay attention to my interior cities and my frontier cities are being used to build combat units.
[ACS_Akula] taking 35%
[ACS_Akula] of my production
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[ACS_Akula] went to peace
[ACS_Akula] and it fell to about 5
[Laertus] Akula: Units being supported by the entire civ was an interesting factor in CTP. I guess it just depends on if you like macro- or micro-management. I actually enjoy having to go into each city and manage it.
[ACS_Akula] I never use the governor
[ACS_Akula] its unrealistic
[Wulf] Akula: me either.
[ACS_Akula] say in the us
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[Wulf] I liked the air-drop capability in SMAC.
[ACS_Akula] if the us army has a stealth fighter wing based near a town
[ACS_Akula] that town doesnt pay the costs of the entire wing
[Laertus] From a governmental standpoint, yes it's unrealistic. A central government should be able to direct military effort on a macro scale. Doesn't mean I enjoy the micromanagement any less:)
[Wulf] Nothing like droping colony pods and formers to expand a civ quickly.
[ACS_Akula] it comes out of a national budget
[Elcabos] Where can i get a complete Guide CIV CTP??
[Laertus] Just a stray thought here, the nice features of CTP were the ability to stack and lock units and the city build queue. I would like to see those in Civ III.
[Laertus] Elcabos: Gamespot has a pretty good review of it, might also try activision's website.
[ACS_Akula] I like the simplicity of moving large ctp armies
[ACS_Akula] but hate the mountain rule
[ACS_Akula] tanks should be able to pass mountains
[Thue] elcabos: elI have seen one at gamespot or gamespotuk
[ACS_Akula] but really slowly
[Laertus] Akula: Yep, that one frustrated the heck out of me initially:)
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[Silverwind] hi all
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[ACS_Akula] look at hitlers invasion of france
[Laertus] Try telling Hannibal that mounted units can't go through the mountains.
[SG_St-Leo] Looking
[ACS_Akula] he won by bringing his troops through the mountians
* Wulf chuckles
[ACS_Akula] it should take a whole turn to move onto and off a mountain
[ACS_Akula] and maybe even a random damage penalty
[ACS_Akula] what about Hanibal and the elephants over the alps
[Laertus] Akula: What "You are stuck in the mountains because your horse threw a shoe" ? :)
[ACS_Akula] yes
[Mentat] I thought he lost
[ACS_Akula] (-:
[Laertus] A one turn repair penalty for something like that for either mounted units or mech units would make sense to me.
[SG_St-Leo] He lost for different reasons
[SG_St-Leo] Rome invaded his homeland while he was in Italy and he had to cross back via ships
[SG_St-Leo] Defeated at Zama by Scipio, I think:-)
[Mentat] Didn't he lose because he brought elephants through the mountains only to face minicivs loyal to Rome?
[ACS_Akula] I dont know roman history
[ACS_Akula] I'm irish
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[Wulf] Do you all think there should be more civs in a game? (more than 7 or so?)
[Laertus] Speaking of movement penalties, I'd like to see the effectiveness of railroads limited a bit in the future too, no matter how fast your railroad is, you shouldn't be able to transport units freely from China to Spain in one turn.
[Mentat] I'm pretty sure he lost, though
[SG_St-Leo] He lost
[SG_St-Leo] He devastated Italy for 17 years and defeated 6 Roman armies while at it:-)
[Mentat] go 3Scipio
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[Mentat] 3CPO
[Laertus] Wulf: Yes, I would like to see more choice for initial civs, like in CTP, but with 7 civs, even on a large map, you see each other fairly soon.
[SG_slee] hey guys..
[philip017] i think the biggest problem is with teraforming. . there's no easy option to chop trees. . . . its cheaper to change a grasslands to aplains then to change a forest to a grassland
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[SG_St-Leo] http://www.sidgames.com/sidportal/
[SG_St-Leo] My secret project unveiled
[Wulf] Laertus: no, I mean more in the game, not more choice as to who you are...
[ACS_Akula] I want to see 150 civs in a single game
[ACS_Akula] and have more options
[SG_slee] hey akula..
[SG_slee] how bout some ops?
[SG_St-Leo] Please surftest:-)
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[SG_slee] (this is stephen lee of SidGames.com)
[SG_St-Leo] Yeah
[ACS_Akula] you dont have to ahve an empire
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[SG_St-Leo] http://www.sidgames.com/sidportal/
[ACS_Akula] but satelite states
[SG_kshah] hahaha..
[ACS_Akula] you cant control them directly
[SG_kshah] =)
[SG_kshah] brb
[ACS_Akula] but you give them specific orders
[SG_slee] hey OPS..
[SG_slee] how bout some OPS? :)
[SG_St-Leo] OP me and Lee
[SG_slee] thank ya 8)
[SG_St-Leo] ;-)
[ACS_Akula] like the ac thigns - attack city x while I attack city y
[Mentat] I'd like to see score bonuses for early wins come back. It's tedious to sit there and develop your territory till the end of the game just to get the high scores.
[philip017] why would anyone try to do that mentat. . that would be absurd. . .
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[Laertus] I've stopped playing games to the end. It gets rather pointless to bombard a civ to extinction, which is usually easier than building that silly spaceship.
[Mentat] To get the high scores
[ACS_Akula] also when you conquer your opponents you should have to option to play on but with a serious happiness disadvantage
[SG_St-Leo] Kshah, mind if I recruit someone to maintain the Imp section?:-)
[ACS_Akula] which could lead to massive numbers of cities revolting
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[Mentat] Civ 1 had bonuses for the year of the win, and that was good
[ACS_Akula] like minus 15 happiness for 100 turns
[Stoel] Hi.
[Richy] 'lo
[SG_St-Leo] http://www.sidgames.com/sidportal/
[Silverwind] seems to me there should be a happiness disadvantage to any enemy city when you first capture it
[philip017] it does get monotonous in the end. . . i have a civ that i need to destroy the rest. . Im about ten times more powerful then my closest enemey . . but i have another 100 cities to capture
[SG_St-Leo] Surftest please:-)
[philip017] there is a slight one i think . . but it should be much greater
[SG_St-Leo] Meaning you already have 1000 cities?:-)
[ACS_Akula] that address you posted
[Laertus] Phillip: Exactly. You know you're going to win, it's just tedious to go through the motions that late in the game.
[ACS_Akula] just crashed explorer 5
[philip017] no; i only have 100 or so. . but aobut 10 of mine are extremely powerful. . .
[philip017] yeah. . and i don't care to start a new one until i beat it. . its taking 10 mins just to complete a turn too
[Mentat] I remember a game of Civ2 where I defeated all but one city, then created an army of some 150 settlers to develop the rest of the game.
[philip017] wouldn't that just be boring mentat?
[ACS_Akula] I played on the large europe map
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[Laertus] Mentat: I did that when I first started playing Civ 2. Leave one enemy city and just develop the heck out of the planet for the grins.
[ACS_Akula] and had cities covering every single land square in the game
[philip017] are there any world maps or euro maps available yet either?
[ACS_Akula] yes
[Mentat] It's boring, but that's how you get your score up there.
[philip017] what was your final score?
[ACS_Akula] by retirement
[Mentat] That's why I think the year bonus should come back
[Mentat] I don't even remember now
[ACS_Akula] all had the improvements
[philip017] it definately should be there. .. .
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[mrtemba] wow, lotsa people
[DSquared] heya
[Laertus] The Euro map that comes with Civ2 is a bit unbalanced though. I've found that if you start with Russia you have much more breathing space than any of the other civs.
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[ACS_Akula] and all grasslands with farms and railroad
[philip017] i would get bored ssitting there for months
[Wulf] I think the number of civs ina game should vary with map size... at the largest map size, you should be able to have like 20 or so civs in the game.
[Mentat] I think it was like %400 on Emporer, but I could be wrong
[mrtemba] what is discussion?
[SG_slee] if anyone's interested..
[SG_slee] check out: http://www.sidgames.com/slee/slee.gif
[ACS_Akula] I just left the americans over in america with a naval blockade and kept them week with constant air attacks from carriers
[mrtemba] Hey, St. Leo, I got another hosting offer!
[mrtemba] Apparently I don't get subdirectories with Sidgames....
[philip017] anyone else dislike the way we chop trees in cctp?
[Silverwind] hi, mrtemba
[SG_St-Leo] Eh?
[mrtemba] wussup silverwind!
[SG_slee] mrtemba.. that's weird..
[SG_slee] so..
[SG_slee] u can't access any of our sites?
[Silverwind] not much.. you? :)
[ACS_MarkG] the camera works
[ACS_MarkG] :)
[SG_slee] huh?
[SG_slee] was that directed at me? :)
[Wulf] how do you chop trees? My wife tried to convert a forest to grassland with terraform, and it wouldn't let her...
[Mentat] what camera?
[mrtemba] no, if I am hosted I would only get one FTP directory
[mrtemba] I can see your sites just gine
[ACS_MarkG] see the url
[philip017] you need about 600 pw to do that. . its way too much
[mrtemba] um, just "fine"
[philip017] its cheaper to change a plains to a grassland then a forest to a plains
[SG_slee] http://www.sidgames.com/slee/slee.gif = picture of me
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[SG_kshah] ohh noo!!!!!
[Wulf] saccording to the game she had plenty of pw, it just wouldn't let her...
[mrtemba] probably dead! lol!
[Wulf] just flashed red and gave no cost.
[SG_St-Leo] Yes, I finally got rid of those stupid frames at the Apolyton forums:-)
[philip017] hmm . . thats weird. . . it should. . . although. .she probably didn't have the technology to chop down trees yet
[mrtemba] I am working on a great new scenario!
[mrtemba] Enemy of God, it will kick everythings ass!
[SG_slee] except my ass
[philip017] its quite a complex idea you know . . its easier to turn a desert into a grassland then chopping down trees
[Mentat] What technology do you need to chop down trees? axe?
[philip017] i don't know. . .lol
[Thue] fire...
[SG_slee] no.. my ass is invulerable to God.
[SG_kshah] just open in new window saint
[SG_slee] God/god has no power over my ass
[philip017] its the one part of the game that has to be fixed. . the manual mentions how early teraformings are those such as chopping down trees. . .
[mrtemba] yes but the ENEMY OF GOD does
[SG_slee] OH..
[philip017] but. . i don't see that as possible
[SG_kshah] it's useful for people not to hack your site =)
[mrtemba] Or is your ass the enemy?
[SG_slee] wouldn't that be the Devil?
[SG_kshah] but, you can't goto a specific topic then ;-(
[mrtemba] nope
[Mentat] your ass is the devil?
[mrtemba] that would be King Arthur
[SG_slee] i think i'll stop while i'm not completely confused 8)
[SG_slee] the King Arthur bit threw me a curve
[mrtemba] its what the scenarios about
[mrtemba] it is too cool for words
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[SG_slee] OH NO!
[SG_slee] my ass!
[St-Lucifer] My arse
[SG_slee] protect me!
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[SG_slee] all right..
[SG_slee] let's revert back to civ conversation
[MR_DEVIL] hahahahah
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[SG_slee] this existential/devil/god/God shit must stop!
[Laertus] Please, I was starting to think I was back in a Gemstone Chat Room.
[mrtemba] sorry sorry I was talking about civ
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[philip017] the other thing i see as bad is that the computer players are never good enough by the time you get sea colinization to make them worth the hassle
[GOD] Why?
[mrtemba] My new scenario is multi part
[mrtemba] 4 parts so far
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[mrtemba] but there are going to be at least ywo more
[philip017] where's a good site to get ctp scenarios?
[mrtemba] um "two" more
[mrtemba] there are no ctp scenarios
[philip017] or just maps. . .
[mrtemba] but there are some awesome MODS at my site and maps
[SG_slee] phillip.. why would u want to poison ur mind with ctp scenarios? :) j/k
[mrtemba] http://members.xoom.com/Mr_Temba
[mrtemba] reject CTP, follow the gourd!
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[Wulf] I thought CTP wasn't a "Sid Game"?
[SG_St-Leo] I don't even own CtP:-)
[philip017] lol .. actually; i was never to fond of civ2 scenarios
[SG_slee] Wulf..
[SG_St-Leo] Sid and Sid Inspired games at SidGames
[SG_slee] it's a Civ game
[mrtemba] civ2 scenarios are better
[mrtemba] so there
[Wulf] ahhh. ;)
[SG_kshah] we cover Civilization, Sid Meier, and Turn Based Strategy games.. that's it
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[mrtemba] I think Apolyton should offer me hosting
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