[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] We are working on bughunting and working on a new and improved library for future projects.
[LoQtus] is it possible to make maps that don't wrap?
[LoQtus] or donut maps?
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] doing a lot of research into possible areas we might compete in ;-)
[SerapisIV] if you wake up married the next morning to the stripper from the night before.... yes!
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] and working on golf , of course
[SerapisIV] areas? RTS RPG, FPS?
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] we "research" everything ;-)
[LoQtus] btw, markos, just realized: you thought the chat transcript would be long 4 hours ago ;)
[SerapisIV] here's a question for someone with a slower system, P2-400, 128RAM..
[SerapisIV] What options can I turn off to allow the game to scroll faster, take shorter turns in the end game?
[Mercator] you can turn off (some) animation
[Mercator] for one
[ACS_MarkG] yes, i think we have surpassed all previous records for our chats :)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Actually, the map scrolling speed is not a problem with low-end machines unfortunately.... That was something that (I feel) was improperly programmed but will definitely be fixed at some point.
[SerapisIV] Kick a$s... thanks.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] However, turning off animations does speed up the AI turns immensely.
[Mercator] of course
[SerapisIV] glad to see its not my system
[LoQtus] markos: a bit of an understatement, mehthinks...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] But only if you can see the AI's units (if you can't see them they don't animate anyway...)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I use the minimap to scroll....
[SerapisIV] because of the slow scrolling, or something you've always done?
[LoQtus] yeah, i know that from ctp experience. no animations helps *extremely* much
[LoQtus] (in the late game anyway)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] both
[SerapisIV] everything so far has pointed towards Soren outdoing himself with the AI...congrats to him from everyone at Apolyton
[Mercator] what part of the game are you most unhappy about?
[LoQtus] good q, merc
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] And he's at the World Series....
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[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] That is a good question, let me think for a minute
[ACS_MarkG] hehe... is jeff briggs back?
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[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] He's in and out of the office
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I think I would've liked to have had more stuff in the editor but I certainly agreed that we shouldn't have held up the game's release solely for the editor....
[LoQtus] what do you most miss from the editor then?
[Bill3000] Is it possible that more stuff could be added in a patch, expantion, etc?
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] Certain featureswere cut from the game and editor, and it was a shame to see them go, but I agree it was better to develop a solid game, and add the cool features later
[LoQtus] scripting language? :cute:
[ACS_MarkG] is it true that the map editor doesnt have a minimap?
[Bill3000] Yep
[Mercator] disaster! ;)
[SerapisIV] .12Is there anyway to choose a world map with historical starting locations?
[Mercator] I think the map editor allows you to add them?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Actually, the lack of a scripting language doesn't bother me -- if implemented properly an editor can be more powerful AND user-friendly than a scripting language.... in my experience anyway. I've written scripting languages before and I've noticed users havea much easier time making mistakes.
[SerapisIV] .12Also, what features would you like to resurrect for an expansion?
[LoQtus] i think so too
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] you can add starting locations, but to date you can't specify which player starts where
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] And yes, minimap, is one thing I miss -- I'm working on that though.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Working on that too.
[ACS_MarkG] mike, just copy the minimap code from civ3 to the editor :)
[SerapisIV] .12can someone creat a scenario at 4000BC with historical starting locations?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] For the expansion I would like to add non-militaristic leaders. We had a cool concept but it wasn't fleshed out enough.
[LoQtus] true, a scripting language is difficult to use, I'll be the first to admit that, but what other method can approach it in terms of 'modding power'?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Well, I've worked on editors for other games where we had what we called "Action Lists" which were basically "Visual Scripting Languages" and made it impossible for users to make syntax errors. They require a little more work in some areas but less in others and I think the end result is superior....
[ACS_MarkG] btw, we had Jeff Morris earlier, and we were talking about "record" button on the end-game replay. here's what i mailed him afterwords
[ACS_MarkG] Especially since saved games are big files, it would be great to have a record button on the end-game replay screen. This would save only the necessary data of the replay in a new file. Zipped, it would be really small i imagine. Obviously there would be a need for this file to be able to be "played" through civ3 later. It's use would be for various things: telling the story of your game, comparisons in strategies, as evidence in various challenge
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] The AI is very adaptive, and we have ideas to add a few features that should give you a considerable amount of "modding power"
[LoQtus] hmm, i'm not familiar with those, certainly worth giving a try. you mentioned starcraft earlier, do you know any other games with this sort of action lists?
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[SerapisIV] .12is there any AI scripting being looked into to make the AI more likely to upgrade obsolete units?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I know of 2 or 3 but they were used only internally ;) The StarCraft editor is a very similar concept though.
[LoQtus] javier: care to elaborate? this sounds very interesting, esp. for a hardcore modder like me
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I think the AI does handle upgrading units pretty well...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I had more of a problem with it in my games ;)
[LoQtus] hmm, most get that game then...
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[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] Alas I don't know all the details, and I don't want to promise things that get cut later ;-)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I modeled a lot of the editor after StarCraft and Age of Kings since I was familiar with both of them....
[SerapisIV] Well, at lower difficulty levels (all I've seen so far) the AI is still running around with knights next to tanks
[LoQtus] btw, mike. is there any good literature on this subject? i never heard of it before...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] It costs money to upgrade...
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] well as far as that, cavalry can't upgrade, so they'll keep running around until they're retired
[LoQtus] hmmm, I was afraid of that, javier :( would you have told me if there weren't any people like yin? ;)
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[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] who? ;-)
[LoQtus] lol
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Actually, I haven't seen any literature on it either. For that matter, I haven't seen any literature on editors in general (not that I looked very hard)....
[LoQtus] hmm, well, I'll guess I'll have to look for it myself then... thanks anyway
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I believe defenders can be upgraded continuously but each type of attack unit only upgrades a few levels..
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] sorry, but rookies have to keep their mouths shut.
[LoQtus] hmm, I wish our good friend WesW was here, he would be delighted to find so many of his excellent gamebalance principles back in Civ3...
[ACS_MarkG] yeah, where's wes?
[Mercator] not here
[ACS_MarkG] you guys should check out ctp2 with wes' medieval pack....
[LoQtus] working on the MedMod I think, he was harassing me with a whole bunch of emails a few days ago :)
[LoQtus] I think that real life thing is cutting in on his apolyton-time. Shame on him ;)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] What is this "real life" thing you speak of?
[LoQtus] beats me... :)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] that stuff in between work and home..
[ACS_MarkG] how much time does the average firaxian spent on apolyton daily? :)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Isn't that the same thing for you? ;)
[LoQtus] hehe
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I don't know -- most people probably spend an hour or two. I usually stay logged in and check it periodically....
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] I wouldn't know. I sift through the forums every few days.
[Mercator] and what other civ sites do you visit?
[LoQtus] how much time do you spend on other civ fansites then?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I just found CivFanatics the other day -- until that I only checked out Apolyton.
[ACS_MarkG] well i am amazed from how little you speak. i dont i think i would manage not to give some answers to some things :)
[ACS_MarkG] mike, forget all the other sites! :D
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] It's tough but some things just can't be said :)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] I checked out civ fanatics earlier, and then a few others.
[LoQtus] hehe, surprising isn't it? activision programmers were exactly the same: real-a-lot, post-a-little
[LoQtus] markos: shhht ;)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] there's that whole NDA thing...
[ACS_MarkG] programmers are always the same, even if they work for activision ;)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] You have to be careful to step on anyone's toes when you post... some people get angry when someone who isn't supposed to be doing PR is....
[LoQtus] NDA, schmNDA ;)
[ACS_MarkG] damn lawyers
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I mean to NOT step onany toes...
[LoQtus] hehe
[ACS_MarkG] yeah, i think Dan Magaha has this "fear of the apolyton news item" :)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] Ours is not to question why...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Lol
[LoQtus] :)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I've grown to live with it....
[ACS_MarkG] yeah, i think he has as well... :D
[ACS_MarkG] or so he says :D
[LoQtus] :)
[ACS_MarkG] so a scenario with changed rules will still be round 250k unzipped?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Depends on the size of the map usually but that's probably a good average... Although huge maps can be around 400K and and 256x256 maps can be quite large (though I don't think they will be as large as 1MB). And they zip quite nicely.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I just found a 256x256 map that's 938kb
[ACS_MarkG] so the big thing will be altered graphics...
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] it has modified rules too.
[ACS_MarkG] and zipped?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] yes
[ACS_MarkG] 100?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] zipped -- 41kb
[ACS_MarkG] wow :D
[ACS_MarkG] lots of spaces in there :D
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Lots of zeroes...
[LoQtus] wow? from 1M to 40k?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Yeah they are completely uncompressed. It reduces load times.
[LoQtus] that means we don't need no file database anymore, we'll simply attach our scenarios to our forum posts :)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] speed is somewhat more important than space in this day & age.
[LoQtus] how do you get so much info in so little space? that's map + all rules?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Yes. I reduced the amount of data saved for each tile quite bit.
[LoQtus] impressive.
[LoQtus] how about savegames? if you'd zip those?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I just zipped a 2.8MB file down to 140KB. Again, no compression.
[ACS_MarkG] 2.8mb of a saved game?
[LoQtus] cool! and people were complaining about large savegames...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] It had 1600+ units in the game
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[Guest] hello
[Mercator] so until people start tweaking the graphics and sounds scenarios can be be a very nice size.
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] well they are large when uncompressed.
[Guest] I love the game but I've got a big problem with it 8(
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] My largest save is 3.57MB
[tulcas] hey mark where can i upload my .bic file to?
[LoQtus] markos: I don't know what the max size of attachments on the forums is right now but if you make it 200kB pp can attach just about any Civ3 savegame to their posts...
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] hi guest
[ACS_MarkG] tulcas in the creation forum
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[ACS_MarkG] locutus, i think it's 200k
[black98z] hello
[Mercator] hi
[black98z] the speed in the game is so slow it's almost unplayable 8(
[tulcas] yeah i just zipped a couple hundred KB bic file down to about 10kb myself..the files compress very well (lots of zeros in them :)
[Mercator] what CPU etc do you have?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] My largest save zipped is 360kb
[black98z] 900mhz amd
[LoQtus] sure, javier but if you have lots of savegames or wish to send them over the net, all you need to do is compress them and voila: tiny savegames :)
[Mercator] do you have other programs running?
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[LoQtus] perfect, marcos
[black98z] all my other games run fine. I saw a post in the forums about someone else having the same problem
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] youmay want to have your computer examined.
[black98z] none
[stleo] Hello
[black98z] I'm a systems engineer 8)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] How much memory do you have?
[black98z] 1 gig
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] good lord.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] ? What OS?
[Mercator] halleluyah
[black98z] memory is cheap right now 8)
[black98z] win2k
[ACS_MarkG] that's the problem! too much memory!
[ACS_MarkG] ;)
[black98z] lol
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[ACS_MarkG] civ3 is loosing count! :D
[black98z] hehe
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] i don't know what to tell you, I run an 800 with 256M, and win2k
[Icedan] losing count?
[LoQtus] i think so too: too much memory :
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] That's odd though... I have a 1 GHz with Win2K and 256 MB and I have no problems with speed....
[black98z] it takes 5 seconds to scroll up one notch
[Icedan] Did you guys test it on lower end machines?
[stleo] Markos, could I have an FTP:)
[stleo] accout
[stleo] account
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] you have an old HD?
[LoQtus] (actually, in the future too much memory WILL become a problem because of access times but I doubt it should be a problem here)
[black98z] no IBM 30 gigs running in ide raid
[Icedan] I have a 450, 128ram, and GeForce2 (will civ3 use the vid cards ram?)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] aha! raid.
[black98z] and geforce3 ti200
[black98z] ??
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] And yes we tested low-end machines. We had at least one tester forced... er... dedicated to testing exclusively on the minimal machine...
[black98z] hehaheh, sux to be him. lol
[LoQtus] she's still playing her first game though ;)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] her
[Mercator] her
[black98z] her
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] Well, a lot of the art files are memory mapped to increase speed.. I don't know how this would be affected by RAID, but it might cause a slowdown..
[Icedan] Well, the slow scrolling doesn't bother me, in Civ2 we never scrolled, and did anyone complain? I just use the map to move around. But sometimes I would click one of the terrains at the edge to move over a bit, can you do that in civ3? (not that you'd need to)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Civ3 won't use andy 3d acceleration since it's not 3d.... but it should use video card memory.
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[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] are you talking about map scrolling black?
[Icedan] cool
[black98z] no, moving the mouse up to top to scroll up
[black98z] or right, to scroll right
[black98z] everything is boggy tho
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] or scrolling throughitems in a list
[Icedan] I think he means the map scrolling
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] hmm, is the mouse itself sluggish?
[stleo] Markos?
[black98z] no, the mouse is not sluggish at all
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] or just the rate at which the map scrolls over
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] try using the minimap to scroll around
[black98z] the rate, plus moving units is boggy too
[black98z] it takes a second and thinks, like an old apple or something
[Icedan] If you're on a higher resolution, will it slow?
[LoQtus] yes
[black98z] 1280x1024 here
[Willy1] I am having a graet time with the game.... I do notice a bit of sluggishness but it is my system and am impressed that it is not that bad
[Icedan] that's quite high
[black98z] could it be the rez?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Yeah, since it's got more info to display. Most of the programmers here do run in higher resolutions. Try running in the default resolution 1024x768....
[Icedan] try the minimum on civ3 black, yeah
[black98z] 320x200? lol
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] I still run at 1280x1024... I'd say try the default.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Initially the higher resolutions weren't "supported" so that could be the problem....
[black98z] okey
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I run in 1024x768.
[Icedan] I'll have the game in.. 2.4 hours =o)
[LoQtus] lol, it's not the amiga era anymore, black :)
[black98z] I was worried it might be my brand new ti200 video card
[Icedan] Is that the titanium??
[black98z] yea
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] that's a fairly precise estimat e;-)
[Icedan] wicked!
[black98z] lowend one
[black98z] 179 8)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] We may have had issues with new video cards, I'm not sure on the details of that.
[Icedan] I'm on a 450 with 128ram, do you think mine could be slow? or just normal
[black98z] its still just a geforce tho so I didn't know
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] ice, you should be fine
[black98z] are there any apolyton guys here?
[ACS_MarkG] here
[Icedan] I can't work out why you'd need 300mhz, I mean you could run age of kings on lower than that and that seems to need more ram, speed, etc, what is it that makes civ3 need so much?
[LoQtus] we're all apolytoners I think. that's why it's called the Apolyton chat ;)
[black98z] the email portion of your forums aren't working 8(
[ACS_MarkG] as if i didnt know
[black98z] hehe, loqtus
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[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] age of king has MAX 1600 units, and it doesn't have quite the same long-term AI requirements that civ has.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Well, AoK recommends games with 75 units. 75 x 8 players = 600 units. In my last game 1600+ units were running around andif I'm not mistaken, maps a re much larger too.
[Icedan] AS IF, DAH :blonde: :)
[Sratava] Good evening, everyone.
[black98z] I'm gonna go try the game at lower rez, brb
[Icedan] But the computer only needs to do crunching on it's turn, why does it need to do a lot of work when the user is playing?
[stleo] I really enjoyed playing AoK on my 166er
[Icedan] or am I wrong there
[LoQtus] CtP2 had as minimum req's a P166. it's a similar game to Civ3. any explaination on the difference there?
[ACS_MarkG] who can you count the units in the game? :)
[stleo] Not:)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] Art, AI, and sound
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] All that info needs to be in memory and the resolution requires more display power
[Icedan] hm.. well Ihope it will work on a 300, 64ram
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] with the magical debug version ;-)
[LoQtus] hmm, makes sense. Civ3 does appear to have an awful lot of graphics and stuff....
[LoQtus] so more ram would do me more good then a faster processor for civ3?
[Icedan] I want to rule the world with impi's...
[LoQtus] generally speaking...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] When I play Aok on my 266 with 8players and a 200 pop.limit, the game bogs down quite a bit -- even more so in SP because of all the AI processing...
[Icedan] I want to be an impi
[Icedan] Is there a limit to units you can make?
[LoQtus] icedan: an impi is a formation, that's like saying "I want to be a batallion" ;)
[stleo] Mike, have you played Europa Universalis?
[Icedan] THEN I WANT TO BE A BATALLION :)
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] I DO want to be a battaliion!
[LoQtus] lol
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] No I haven't played Europa Universalis.
[Icedan] I didnt know that.. why call a unit a formation?
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] I'm sure both help, as for which one is more important, if the game takes a lot of time between turns -- CPU , if it takes a long time loading things -- Ram, if both are slow...
[LoQtus] i don't know, what else to call it. legion and phalanx are also formations
[black98z] sigh, the rez isn't the problem
[stleo] Just wondering
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Hey there was a Phalanx in Civ2....
[Icedan] oic
[LoQtus] probably some others too
[LoQtus] still beats the 'Rider' hands down...
[Icedan] you havent got photoshop,maya,icq,winamp and a media player going have you black?
[Icedan] :)
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS] You remove the KeepRes=1 ?
[black98z] yup
[Willy1] Quick question. I was jsut looking through the manual and if I set units to garrison a city/town will it skip over them through each turn?
[black98z] put in Video Mode=1024
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Get rid of video mode stuff altogether
[black98z] k
[black98z] brb
[Icedan] heard there's a patch in the works, when's it comin?
[LoQtus] when it's done ;)
[Icedan] And remember, Colonization 2 is your next game, ok? Sid Meier told me to tell you
