Our chat on the Civ3 AI with Soren Johnson. In red, the operators. In
blue, Firaxis team members
[sgsmitty] 14 hours - imagine as a MP????
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Are you having fun?
[Almostboughtit] Soren go ahead and ask us.
[KingAl] YES!!!!
[Anunikoba] Oh yeah Soren!!
[gamadictG] I'm having fun...
[MacTBone] you bet
[Arrendek] I'm sure, in fact I know Apolyton has a list of known bugs, that you're planning on addressing this, however, I need to bring it up.
[Karhgath] garmadictG - I did play Zulu... the only civ i haven't tried yet are Americans and Indians.
[Nobody2] With Civ3? Yeah. It's great
[sgsmitty] I am having a blast with the game, great job
[libredr] OUI !!
[Mark13] Not until 16 Nov :(
[LoQtus] no, 'cause I'm live in Europe
[Congestion] I will, when the game gets to Europe.
[TLG] There is still a the million gold a turn bug with diplomacy. Had anyone else encountered this ?
[gamadictG] Half the fun is reading what other people are discovering with the game, too...
[Almostboughtit] Soren---No, cause I didn't buy it. *LOL*
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] cool... that's what it's all about.
[Guest13683] yes but it could be more fun
[Arrendek] With spying, I saved a game and tried a few different planting spies approach.
[Yaga] I am throughly enjoying the game, despite a number of frustrations.
[Dasaecor] not until 16th Nov, but sure I will
[libredr] I am European but I have good american friends ;)
[gamadictG] Except that I suck, of course...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] well, except for "almostboughit" :)
[gamadictG] Can't even come close to winning on Regent...
[Arrendek] every time, for some reason, the first civ I attempted to plant failed, the next two succeeded, and the next one failed also
[Canuss] I'm enjoying the hell out of it.
[Nobody2] I may put Civ3 on hold once MGS2 comes out, though... ::ducks::
[Arrendek] It didn't matter who I tried to spy on
[Nobody2] Only temporarily!
[Almostboughtit] Soren---I will buy it, hell I'll buy 3 freakin copies if you all add multiplayer.
[gamadictG] Well, MGS2 is only 15 hours, or so...
[gamadictG] Though, it'll be a great 15 hours, I'm guessing...
[Almostboughtit] Soren---I'm a huge Civ Fan. Just can't buy a game that should have multiplayer and doesn't.
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, well think this: Civ3 is best of the Civs, Civ belongs to my all time Hall of Fame of Games with UFO: Enemy Unknown (aka X-Com:Ufo Defense) and Combat Mission and I have been playing games since C64. So guess am I having fun or not? ;)
[Guest83111] I know I'm late, but I'm wondering if the AI's respect for borders, both in observing others' and policing their own, will be addressed in the near future?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] if you like the million dollar bug, don't get the patch!
[Anunikoba] lol
[TLG] I will buy 100 copies if you open source Civ3 !
[Nobody2] The million dollar bug doesn't work for me :(
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] hah
[Almostboughtit] wow 100 copies.
[Auslander] Soren: Why doesn't the AI build colonies? I have seen the AI build cities in the worst possible place just to get a strategic resource.
[gamadictG] I will take Civ3 for free if you open source Civ3...!!
[sgsmitty] 100 copies, right
[gamadictG] Too bad I already bought it...
[sgsmitty] for free, that is the real reason to open source....
[Almostboughtit] I've bought 3 copies of multiplayer Civ 2.
[Sunstone2] Thanx to all ! Thanx Soren for makin a really outstanding AI - job. Thanx markG for everything...cu reading the log tomorrow :-)
[MacTBone] i've seen the ai build colonies...
[TLG] No to tweak the game :)
[Karhgath] btw guys, open source != free. but thats another topic =)
[CyberGnu] soren, will the cultural reassimilation of conquered cities be fixed in the near future?
[MacTBone] in fact the Americans had three or four
[TLG] Wanna play with my AI too :)
[Guest83111] OH - The AI seems to know at times where Strategic Rescources *will* appear (Reagent Level) and builds cities long before they appear.
[ACS_MarkG] Soren, how do you feel about statements like "Civ3 is broken"? :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Guest83111: I believe that the only time the AI will violate your territory is when it is fighting a war with someone else or trying to found a city. If you tell it to get out, it should not try to found a city for a while... can't do much about wa though. But having the AI fight each other is almost always a good thing, right?
[gamadictG] I've seen the AI kick my ass many times...
[TLG] CyberGnu: it's a feature, it's not a bug
[gamadictG] It's clearly broken...
[CyberGnu] shoot!
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] CyberGnu: not sure what you mean...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] there are things you can do to encourage and discourage reassimilation
[CyberGnu] Well, I returned the game to the store yesterday...
[Almostboughtit] Congrats on a job well done. Don't let me bother you. I'm a huge fan of Firaxis.
[Auslander] CyberGnu: GET OUT! We don't like your kind here. :)
[gamadictG] Geez...
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, I think the "Invulnerable bomber" -bug is fixed in the next patch?
[CyberGnu] I'm gonna wait for the patch... If the more glaring problems are fixed
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Mark: too many people are having fun to claim that it is broken.
[CyberGnu] I'll buy it again
[gamadictG] You know, I have no money...But I never obsess over whether to purchase or keep a game like some people...:)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Wexu: we are working on it.
[CyberGnu] MGS2?
[Guest83111] Soren: Hrm - I've had a different experience; the AI (again, on Regent) continually voilates my borders attempting to either build a city somewhere, or if I happen to be between they and a civ they're at war with. I am forced to tell them to get out repeatedly, and they often will enter over multiple, consecutive turns, such that I'm eventually given one of three options: put up with it, get a right-of-passage agreement, or cl
[TLG] Why aren't my improvements sold when I am running out of money (chieftain level perhaps) ?
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, yeah, it's a bad bug. :)
[KingAl] I came in late, what is the ETA for the first patch (not that any bugs are affecting me at the moment)
[LoQtus] kingAI: unknown
[gamadictG] The border thing is probably the thing that annoys me the most...
[ACS_MarkG] kingai, uncertain but possibly end of month
[Wexu] KingAl, as soon as possible.
[gamadictG] Other then that the AI's keep everyone bunched up with techs by trading everything...
[Nobody2] Create a line of warriors along your border from shore to shore. That'll keep 'em out :P
[gamadictG] Hey, I've got an idea...
[Wexu] have someone seen AI build a fortress?
[CyberGnu] so what else is going to be patched?
[gamadictG] If I destroy every other Civ, there'll be noone to violate my borders...!!
[Guest83111] *nod* AI's seem to have two states when dealing with eachother: Best-of-Buddies or Dire Enemies.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] CyberGnu: to help keep your cities from switching sides try... filling the city with cheap combat units... capturing cities which are far from his/her capital and close to yours... rush-building culture in the city.... building culture in your civ... having a WLTKD... squelching resistance
[Karhgath] The violation of border isn't what bothers me... it's the over expansion of the AI. I think only expansionists AI should try to build cities everywhere to cover every single map tile.
[TLG] yeah for now the borders are mainly annoying for the players... When the AI decided to expand its civ it will do accordingly with an army of settlers. Or at least it will try.
[TLG] yeah for now the borders are mainly annoying for the players... When the AI decided to expand its civ it will do accordingly with an army of settlers. Or at least it will try.
[Guest83111] "WLTKD?"
[Karhgath] Wexu : yes, Iroquois did build forts... they build those a LOT less than in Civ2 tho =)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] We Love The King Day (WLTKD)
[LoQtus] guest: We love the king day
[Wexu] I'd like to see more forts.
[Guest83111] Ah
[Guest83111] thanks
[Nobody2] WLTAID - We love the AI Day :P
[Wexu] and colonies could be a little more effective.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] forts are generally of dubious value, so the AI doesn't emphasize them...
[Arrendek] There is a bug with the espionage... Whenever I try to plant a spy, the first time it always fails. I have tried it on numerous occasions with different civilizations. On one specific turn which I kept reloading to try new civs, I always got one fail, two successes (different civs only), another fail, and a success. It always happened in this order no matter which civs I chose to plant a spy with. What's up with that?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] they will build them on choke-points. has anyone seen that yer?
[Wexu] hmm.. what does 'dubious' mean? sorry my bad english.
[Anunikoba] No- I haven't seen AI fortresses yet
[TLG] Karhgath: good point, on my last game on Earth I started in Australia and when I decided (a bit late OK, 1800s) to build a city on the European-Asia continent there was not a single spot available !
[Auslander] Soren: I haven't seen the AI build a fort yet.
[Guest83111] Arrendek: I've had variable experience with planting spies
[Nobody2] Yeah! Why are spies so hard to plant?
[Karhgath] Soren : yup, irosuois built on on a choke point to protect against a French invasion.. was a pretty cool war =)
[LoQtus] wexu: in this case 'mediocre'
[Matte] yea more forts at borders, When workers have nothing to do build fortress. not everywere but at long lasting borders
[Wexu] LoQtus, thanks!
[Congestion] Can anyone confirm or deny Arrendeks spy bug?
[Karhgath] *iroquois, not irosuois =)
[Nobody2] I can confirm it.
[CyberGnu] TLG, the reassimilation?
[Guest83111] Soren: I havn't seen them build forts on choke points as yet...
[CyberGnu] Soren, same thing?
[CygnusZ] Heh, how'd I know this would be the topic :P
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] well, spies have a certain amount of diminishing returns. If you fail when you plant a spy, then you are less likely to be successful when you try to plant a spy again. This effect does wear off with time.
[Arrendek] I only have one other friend who owns the game and he always destroys the other civs before he makes it to espionage... ;)
[ACS_MarkG] i've had spies going through the first time
[Guest83111] Congestion: I've had successes at the begining.
[Matte] And ofcourse put some units in them. Maybe put offensive units in them so they don't run around all the time
[LoQtus] karhgath: shame on you, it's Iroquois, not irosuois ;)
[TLG] CyberGNU : what ?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ok, just a couple more questions...
[Arrendek] I don't think it's a "can't do it on first try" thing so much as a specific order thing
[Nobody2] So what's the best way to go about planting spies?
[ACS_MarkG] btw Soren, isnt it a bit unfair too loose all your units along with a captured city that converts back to the other civ?
[Auslander] Regarding spying, you couldn't get James Bond into Germany.
[LoQtus] soren: what's your favourite civ to play with?
[Karhgath] LoQtus : yeah, my fault *punches the damn keyboard* =)
[TLG] perhaps they should flee...
[CyberGnu] I described this in one of the threads... I did everything I could to keep one of my conquered cities, but I oly got to keep it four turns
[Auslander] Are some Civs more resistant to spys?
[LoQtus] lol@karhgaht
[Matte] i think the AI should use ships more even on same continent to transfer troops.. Much more a suprise when the AI use ships to come in behind you
[CyberGnu] Which is annoying and quite unrealistic
[gamadictG] So Soren...
[gamadictG] What aspect of the game are you and Firaxis most proud of...??
[Karhgath] CyberGNU : were all resistors squelshed yet?
[Wexu] is anyone else annoyed by the "artillery bombard failed" (or something like that) -text and pause for couple of seconds? when it fails I think nothing should happen. It just slows gameplay when there's much bombarding.
[Cropper1973] Soren, please once more for all of us, will there be multiplayer support added?
[Almostboughtit] CyberGnu--why is it unrealistic?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Mark: I'm not sure what the option is. If the city converts what else could happen to the units inside? However, cities are less likely to convert if there are military units garrisoned there.
[CyberGnu] If my tanks could kill off his spearmen without problem, how did his citizens kill my tanks?
[Arrendek] Spies end up being too weak anyways (unless you need enemy troop positions I guess) because democracy (which they always choose) is resistant to propaganda, which is the coolest spy trick
[ACS_MarkG] gropper, they are working on it, there is nothing official to announce
[Fozzie76] I've lost 10 units in a 3 population city when it converted
[Congestion] Maybe lose half and move half out of the city. Or reduce all units to 1 hp.
[Guest83111] Wexu" I like knowing that it failed - there are times when nothing happens, and the lack o' message annoys me more
[Fozzie76] Puts a damper on your attack :)
[ACS_MarkG] soren, some of them could escape from the city
[Nobody2] That's true...I never could figure out how the Zulus (who hate Democracy) choose that government type.
[Almostboughtit] Good luck all and good gaming.
[CygnusZ] Soren: Is the chance of cultural assimliation after a city is taken over based upon the # of foreign nationals present?
[Fozzie76] Can't the units just be kicked out like when a government asks you to remove your units from their territory?
[CyberGnu] the easy fix would be to suspend the assimilation for newly conquered cities... for at last 20 turns
[Almostboughtit] I gotta go wife just got home. *booh*
[TLG] Another issue : your governors should not decide whether or not they should build naval units. It is a choice that should be up to the player depending on what kind of exploration he likes (expanding on the continent, founding distant cities...)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] perhaps, but that involves movement which makes a simple system much more complex
[Congestion] Let half the units escape with only 1 HP left.
[Zzzax] couldn't units be 'expelled' to nearest 'friendly' city if the town they're in converts? or something similar?
[Karhgath] CyberGNU : It's not 'unfair', but I was a little pissed when I lost 2 armies garnison in a french city =( Maybe having a 50% of surviving and poping out around the city, ala Partisans?
[Arrendek] Oh, and before an enemy civ had espionage, I tried to uncover an enemy spy and had a failure attempt, which suggested (in its wording) that they had a spy in my city.
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, what's up with the bombards when sometimes it says "bombard fails" and sometimes NOTHING happens??
[Snowhawk001] Is there any chance of a flag that disallows a certain type of government for specific civs ? (Would be great for future scenarios..)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Wexu: that's something we are looking at...
[CyberGnu] Anyway. I think you guys did a superb job on the AI, which is what this chat issuppsoed to be about right? I only wish the game implementation would have the same high standard
[Nobody2] Biggest question: Soren, when will you be back to chat again?
[Fozzie76] Any chance of getting a right click menu a la Alpha Centauri for worker or unit commands? I hate memorizing hotkeys
[libredr] Soren, once again thank you to you, and to the Firaxis team. This is really a great game, which needs some tuning, but which is as addictive as its predecessors. Bravo !
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] well, I had a great time, so hopefully soon. Thanks for all the questions, and I am very glad that people are having fun!
[TLG] Just imagine that you prepare an invasion, holding your troops (say 20 knights and 10 cannons) and that, suddently, the cities decides to join another civilization ! Prepare to be M-A-D !
[Karhgath] Yup, tons of fun =)
[Cropper1973] thank you Soren!
[Anunikoba] Thanx for coming!
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Happy Civing!
[ACS_MarkG] Many thanks Soren, perhaps another Firaxian would like to experience an Apolyton Chat :)
[Guest83111] Thanks Soren
[Dasaecor] bye Soren, bye everybody
[libredr] Thanx, bye !
[Auslander] Thanks.
[Congestion] Thanks!
[m_m_x] damn
[m_m_x] i missed it
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Bye Everyone!
[TLG] bye
[LoQtus] thanks for joining us Soren and for your good work on the AI
[Matte] Have to go.. Love the Game.. best game since civ2. :) But ofcourse i need
[Arrendek] Thanks Soren, bye.
*** Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
[LoQtus] bye
[Matte] some sleep
[TLG] and thank you for your time !
[Oldenbarnevelt] bye
[gamadictG] Heh...
[Karhgath] cybergnu : well, suspending the revolt thing for 20 tunrs is not realistic.. if they are going to revolt, it will be in the 20 first turns, hehe
[Matte] Bye thanks for answering
[gamadictG] And there goes everyone else...
[ACS_MarkG] that's it guys, three whole hours :)
