Our chat on the Civ3 AI with Soren Johnson. In red, the operators. In
blue, Firaxis team members
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Sunstone: yes, I know. In my estimation, the AI has the best chance of competiting successfully if it expands aggressively.
[ACS_MarkG] i'll voice some people at random, lets see if you're worth it :)
[Sunstone2] ok, thanx alot ...devoice me.
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[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] SITS: well, it is like a permanent We Love The King Day, which can help your production a lot. Needless to say, however, it is not one of the AI's favorite wonders.
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[ACS_MarkG] you know soren, the We Love The King Day animations are geting tiring on me :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Perhaps it is time to increase the difficulty level? :)
[ACS_MarkG] you mean monarch isnt difficult? :)
[ACS_MarkG] people with + in front of their names can actually talk!
[gamadictG] Soren...
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[gamadictG] I dunno if this has been addressed, but the Privateer seems pretty weak...
[ACS_MarkG] [TLG-asking] How does the AI deal with so many diplomatic options (trade goods, gold, sciennce, cities) ? How did you track erratic AI behaviour ?
[SITS] Cheers Soren - it does seem to be a left over from Civ2 so I can't really see the value of it in civ3. It would be great if it produced lots of culture points like +10. AI question - Does the AI cheat and know where your weakly defended cities are?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] monarch is a good difficulty level... in fact, I would describe it as the most fair. There are some AI bonuses, but they are not very powerful, and the human can always edge out the AI through little things, like micro-managing the science slider.
[Congestion] Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] gama: we are looking at the Privateer values...
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[ACS_MarkG] thank you gama. cropper you can talk
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[Congestion] I'll try again: Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random?
[LoQtus] thanks, markos
[LoQtus] question: who's idea was it to put Apolyton in as a Greek city name and why didn't you name it Apolyton.net? ;)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] TLG: I tracked erratic AI behavior by just watching the AI play itself. Every night went I left work, I would set two computers up to have 7 AI civs just go at it, and in the morning there was always something interesting I didn't expect. The AI handles diplomacy by assigning a value to everything which can be put on the table and accepting a deal if it's side is more or equal to your (there are some special cases...)
[ACS_MarkG] "I would set two computers up to have 7 AI civs just go at it" how can we do something like that? :D
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] LoQtus: it's one of those things which just worked its way into the project...
[ACS_MarkG] [Twostep] Any chance armies will be allowed to attack more than once? When fighting low tech AI's it is a disadvantage to put tanks into an army because you can only kill 1 enemy per turn
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] sorry Mark, that is only available in debug mode...
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[LoQtus] any chance you'll make it available to us in the future (AI-only)?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Twostep: true, but an army is a guaranteed win most of the time, so it is usually worth the trade-off. But it is a trade-off, so you have to make a choice.
[Congestion] Third time is a charm :) :Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] LoQtus: that is undetermined...
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[Twostep] ok, but it still seems unrealistic... 3 tanks attack 1/3 as much as 1 does
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] sorry, I am sure I missed a few ?'s
[Congestion] Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Congestion: there is a ratio for resources and luxuries which is set by the number of players in the game. There is always at least one resource per civ and there is never more than one luxury per civ. The "commodity" resources (wheat, gold, etc...) basically just fill up the rest of the map.
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[TLG] The bonus for expansive civs seems too slim to me, 1 worker at the start is not enough when it only takes a couple of ressources to build
[SITS] Soren - The Shakespeare theatre would be more useful if it produced 10+ culture points - at the moment it seems to be a left over from civ2 with cities supporting units. AI question - does the AI cheat by knowing which city is poorly defended?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] TLG: that is true, but only expansionist civs can build scouts, and they get much better stuff from goody huts (never barbarians) It sort of depends on the map. Obviously, expansionistic is pretty useless on archipelago.
* ACS_MarkG would like to announce that we'll go to unmoderated. If you're good kids we'll keep it that. Just remember that SOren is one person and our topic is AI. Thanks :)
[Congestion] Thanks. Next question: Will there be a comprehensive list with all the keyboard shortcuts with the upcoming patch?
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[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Congestion: is the manual incomplete.
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[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ?
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[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] SITS: that's an interesting idea about Shakespeare's Theatre...
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[ACS_MarkG] Congestion, i think the manual has a full list
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...as for the AI, well, the AI does not interface with the map like the player does. There were, however, some AI bugs in the original release in which the AI obviously was target the weakest city. We are working on that... I just want to emphasize though that the AI is not a human. They don't have a keyboard, mouse or monitor, so the answer to that question is never going to be "Yes" or "No." It will always be somewhat grey..
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] targetting
[ACS_MarkG] Soren, a question of mine: i've only played 1.5 games so far, but the AI does not seem very aggresive? Is it just a matter of difficulty level(monarch)?
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[gamadictG] I'd just like to say...
[Pembleton] play more games...the Ai will be very aggressive depedning on who it is
[LoQtus] woohoo! we're free! :)
[Congestion] Most (not all) of the info is in the manual, but a reference card, or listing of keyboard shortcuts, would make it MUCH easier to use.
[gamadictG] That I'm overjoyed Pittsburgh made the list of American cities this time...:)
[Pembleton] the Japanese were really annoying my last game
[Pembleton] and the Zulus too
[Congestion] And I don't *think* there is one in the manual.
[Guest49155] Are there plans to change the AI so it "knows" better that certain city sites guarantee culture absorption (e.g. right between four player cities)?
[gamadictG] By the way...
[gamadictG] Does anyone ever pick to play as the Zulus...?? Ever...??
[Argeye] Does having a bit of a military in a city help it's attitude at all? I mean, does your culture grow faster? Or will it make the city grow faster if there is a military there? It seems all my cities want to build are combat units =/
[CyberGnu] Soren, if it is a tradeoff to use an army instead of three individual units, why would you ever expend a leader creating one? I thought the tradeoff would be between an instan wonder and an army
[Matte] Are the AI programmed to use Artillery Defensive of Offensive?
[sdaf] What's the major difference between the AI in Civ2 and Civ3?
[LoQtus] ehh, one question at a time guys or markos has to go +m again...
[ACS_MarkG] Congestion, page 196 :D
[SITS] What is the AI's fav wonder?
[libredr] Did you remove airbases for gameplay balance ?
[Atahualpa] Moderated gone!
[Atahualpa] finally
[Mark13] Soren - I've heard that a lot of the civs tend to be 'grouped together' i.e. the Indians always starting next to the Chinese. Was this purely co-incidence, or is there something in the programming?
[Congestion] I'm blushing.
[gamadictG] I think that's definitely more then a coincidence...
[gamadictG] Not that you asked me...
[Nobody2] Well, before we get moderated again, I just wanted to thank Soren for his wonderful work. The AI has some rough edges, but it's still pretty solid.
[Wexu] I hope AI aggresivness doesn't just rise with difficulty levels, because I love to play at Prince (no AI cheating), but I think AI could a bit more aggressive time to time.
[Pembleton] Well it's definitely much better than Civ2
[LoQtus] mark13: that's a deliberate choice: civs with similar culture always start near each other (just like in real life, or that's the idea)
[CyberGnu] Also, does the AI create armies? I've never seeon one so far..
[Pembleton] the AI
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[Atahualpa] or KI in German
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[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] sorry, I got disconnected...
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[Sunstone2] SOREN_FIRAXIS : The beginning advantages (like industrious and expansionistic) differ a lot. Compare FRENCH to ZULU. French: Industrious/Commercial both very good. ZULU : Expansionistic/militaristic, bad in the long run. Will that be tweaked??
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[Wexu] repost: I hope AI aggresivness doesn't just rise with difficulty levels, because I love to play at Prince (no AI cheating), but I think AI could a bit more aggressive time to time.
[SITS] What is the AI's fav wonder?
[Nobody2] Don't play Zulu for the long run. :P
[Guest02849] heh
[Pembleton] The AI is aggressive to me I don't understand why people think it isn't
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Mark: I think the AI is a little less aggressive than in Civ2, but I think it varies from game to game. Some people seem to think the AI is quite aggressive.
[Anunikoba] I have been doing some modding and I am wondering: Will the AI be able to use units and improvements/wonders that I change properly, simply on the basis of it seeing the differences in their attributes? For instance, I gave Infantry a limited amount of tile improving ability- will the AI know to use Infantry in that limited way now?
[Atahualpa] As long as the AI starts an invasion its okay :)
[Wexu] Pembleton, well yeah it asks you territory map and 5 gold or they'll destroy you, that's kind of ridicilous. :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] also, aggression levels can be easily tweaked via the editor...
[Pembleton] I was at peace with the Japanese with a good attitude and as soon as they didn't have coal they basically smashed me...there was no way I could win that game since they had oil and I didn't
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, I think, when AI decides to really threathen you, it should ask something rational, like some tech or city, not territory map and 5 gold pieces. :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] the AI likes the Pyramids, the Great Library, the Art of Wonder, the Hoover Dam, Sistine Chapel maybe? I tried to make sure the AI knew to emphasize the choice wonders since that seemed to be a flaw in previous AI's
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] the Art of War, I mean
[SITS] Cheers Soren!
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] well, if it is asking for gold, it is probably b/c you don't have any techs it doesn't have. I think...
[ACS_MarkG] Soren, a question of mine: i've only played 1.5 games so far, but the AI does not seem very aggresive? Is it just a matter of difficulty level(monarch)?
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, then it should ask at least 100 gold, not 5. :)
[Atahualpa] [Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Mark: I think the AI is a little less aggressive than in Civ2, but I think it varies from game to game. Some people seem to think the AI is quite aggressive.
[CyberGnu] Soren, does the AI create armies? I have never seen one...
[LoQtus] Markos, he answered your question already... (first thing he didn after rejoining)
[Atahualpa] ACS_MarkG: he answered that already :)
[Nobody2] Question: How does the automated worker know whether to mine or irrigate a given grassland square?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Anunikoba: the AI will probably not be able to deal with road-building infantry... that would require a whole 'nother level of AI (should this unit be improving or fighting?) and that choice never existed in Civ3...
[EArcher] Hey can you only have one Golden Age ?
[ACS_MarkG] i thought he was answering to the differences from civ2 question by mark13 :)
[Anunikoba] Thanx Soren
[Mark13] Wasn't me :-)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] I hope the AI is creating armies... I've seen it happen a number of times. Getting leaders is pretty hard (As I'm sure y'all know)
[LoQtus] that's why I always call you 'markos', too many guys called 'mark' :)
[Zzzax] do you have any plans to refine the way you win a diplomatic victory somewhat? the way the game currently ends in the case of a decisive UN vote is very abrupt and arbitrary.
[Anunikoba] I have seen an AI army once- I remember now from a while ago
[Pembleton] Yes, I've seen a Zulu army early in the game 2 games ago
[Anunikoba] Funny, the army I saw was also Zulu
[Pembleton] because of impi...
[Anunikoba] yes
[CyberGnu] Thanks! Umm, another question about armies... if it is a tradeoff to use one instead of three individual units, why would you ever expend a leader on it? I thought the tradeoff would be between instant wonder and army?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Nobody: well, there is a basic pattern it follow to even it out. Basically, every other tile gets mine/irrigation. One of the reasons for this was that the AI would never accidently box of an area of the map from fresh water access...
[EArcher] i have seen an egyptian army
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] zulu==military
[Sunstone2] .Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: I guess you played the game lots and lots of times, so you must know: Aren't some civs more likely to succeed??
[Pembleton] i use one Gl to make an army so I can make the military academy...and then the rest are wonder rushers...if I ever get more than 1
[ACS_MarkG] sunstone, they probably tried not to have something like that :)
[ProvostHarrison] Well personally I have found whether to mine is dependent on the nature of the city, how much food, it's production levels (if there are a lot of hills or mountains there, for example)...
[Mark13] CyberGnu - I think what Soren was saying was that b creating an army, you're effectively substituting three normal units for one 'unbeatable' unit - that's your trade-off...
[TLG] The French seems one of the best choice so far :) (I am French)
[Matte] s
[ACS_MarkG] i have only goten one(1) great leader so far...
[ProvostHarrison] I haven't gotten a great leader yet :-(
[Nobody2] The Chinese are my favorite. (But I'm American :P)
[Pembleton] my # of Gls varied with my games and depended also on whether I was a military civ or not... my last game I got none
[CyberGnu] But it is not unbeatable... I've had my army of three infantry beat my an enemy knight once...
[TLG] Players often complain that the AI "cheats". One of the way to fix that would be using corruption levels as something open to the AI engine. Since corruption is an "out-of-control" phenomenon, nobody could critize this if well implemented. What do you think of the idea?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Sunstone: it's funny... I assumed that some civs would always come out on top, and although there are some which tend to be more successful, there is not one which always win in the AI-on-AI games. Which is not to say a human couldn't find a terrific strategy for just one civ...
[Atahualpa] The chance to win the game by cultural means, how great is it really?
[Mark13] Well yeah - but it strengthens the units a great deal...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] one leader per game is probably about average... it is a reward for playing militaristically.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] one leader per game is probably about average... it is a reward for playing militaristically.
[Sunstone2] :-)) thanx Soren! I think I'll try that....
[ACS_MarkG] soren, perhaps it was because i had recently killed a civ?
[Zzzax] 2nd time: do you have any plans to refine the way you can win a diplomatic victory somewhat? as it is, the game ends very abruptly and arbitrarily with just the UN vote.
[CyberGnu] Hmm, I've had five so far this game...
[Atahualpa] Moo2 diplomatic ending sucked somehow
[Nobody2] Militaristic + Heroic Epic = Leader Factory :P
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] atahualpa: it depends on your rivals. having twice as much culture than anyone else on Prince or higher is pretty much impossible (PRETTY MUCH... I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS!), so I think the 20,000 points in one city is more doable. You need to plan for it though. Build the temple and library ASAP and lots of wonders.
[Pembleton] Does the computer make the UN? I've only played 1 game that got that far...rest I gave up on...losing causes...
[Anunikoba] The AI does make the UN
[Anunikoba] I lost once that way
[Atahualpa] thx soren
[Wexu] suggestion: (Apolytoners, what do you think?) I'd like to be able to create "city defending kit", where I could decide what units I want to be defending every city of mine. Like: I want to every city 2 infantry, 1 artillery and 1 fighter, then I could see at main screen a small green light at near the city that would tell me that all the defending requirements have been met. Or maybe this could be put to city advisor or somewhere. Now I have to go through
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Pembleton: the AI does make the UN... it might be the most important wonder in the game.
[SITS] Has any bugs that have come up since the game has been released caused any finger pointing in the Firaxis office? :)
[ACS_MarkG] Soren, you mean that there is rule for the ai not to build it?
[Sunstone2] By the way: I think the AI is terrific, especially in the way wars are handled strategically: great job!! You really didn't disappoint any of my high hopes!
[Atahualpa] ahh maybe I should note that I am currently not in possesion of the game (as it isnt released yet in Germany and Austria)
[Congestion] Do units in an army gain experience?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] zzzax: I'm not sure what we could do with the diplomatic ending. It is pretty straightforward. Get a majority and you win. More bells and whistles? (they do matter, btw)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] thanks
[LoQtus] brb
[sgsmitty] for the AI, which language was used, how many lines o code?
[Atahualpa] Maybe like in Moo2: not accept the vote and play on
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] mark: you can tell the AI never to build certain types of buildings and units in the editor. But like I said earlier, some fall under multiple categories, so it can be tricky.
[Congestion] (For anyone with the game): Do units in an army gain experience?
[Atahualpa] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1: that would leave it up to the player if he decides to end the game here or not
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] C++ and the code would be measured in the hundreds of thousands.
[Nobody2] Question: What solutions/suggestions do you have for speeding up the "between turn" waits caused by the AI's thinking and the auto-movement of units? (Other than playing smaller maps or buying a faster computer)
[Wexu] hmm.. maybe it wasn't a good suggestion?
[MacTBone] yes they do gain experience
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] yes, units in an army gain experience...
[Nobody2] Armies don't gain experience...I don't think.
[Nobody2] Ok...I'm wrong. :P
