Our chat on the Civ3 AI with Soren Johnson. In red, the operators. In
blue, Firaxis team members
[Jannekorv] I've never gotten a rigth of passage agreement, ol Abe was as happy as could be but he still wouldnt agree. Is this of great importance to the AI?
[Congestion] Good call.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] corruption does depend on map size...
[ProvostHarrison] ...yeah, that is just asking to lose it's city...
[ProvostHarrison] OK, fair enough...
[OG_Quantum] soren:thats great thanks
[Twostep] any chance airbases will come back?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] The AI values right of passage agreements according to a) how much land you have and b) if you sahre continents and c) if they like you
[libredr] And atmospheric missiles should be aerian units, eg to be put in submarine
[nidz-onehalf] *I've got a AI-strategy question*
[atamus1] ive found i can overtake others cities easily by running up right next to its border and building my city
[connorkimbro] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: not d) how badly they want to found a city on the opposite side of your empire? :)
[atamus1] well only if its new and culture level is low
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] the culture rush is a legit strategy...
[Congestion] The stats of the Privateer unit, are they also a topic for discussion for the patch?
[ProvostHarrison] Another question is about the problem with special units and the way they integrate into the upgrade structure, for example, I can upgrade from Spearmen-]Pikemen-]Musketmen. But if I was playing the French, I cannot upgrade from Pikemen-]Musketeers, and I think the same applies to other UU by the way they are implemented. Is there a way you could sort this out?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] connor: that's the idea...
[Killertox] And build tempel
[atamus1] what about the f-15 its too late in game
[connorkimbro] Ok :)
[atamus1] imo
[nidz-onehalf] *I've got a AI-strategy question* may i ask it?
[ACS_MarkG] go
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] well, not being able to upgrade TO an unique unit was a design decision b/c of the other benefits of that unit (Golden Ages, for example...) However, the French should be able to upgrade from Pikeman to Rifleman. In other words, it shouldn't "cut the chain" so to speak.
[connorkimbro] nidz-onehalf: sure whats your question?
[TheChief] .10Soren --- Is simple trespassing enough of an excuse to start a war with an AI player without losing points with other AI players. In other words, I don't want to ruin my reputation in the long run to win by the UN vote.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] F-15's are late in the game, but many have argued that a late Golden Age is very powerful...
[atamus1] they do it to me alot when i tell them to leave [russians]
[Killertox] Soren: When will Multiplayer be availebal
[Guest20271] I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory?
[nidz-onehalf] does the AI ever "backstab"? like: This CIV is kinda small military, but great scientific. So first i'll trade all techs, then whipe em out...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] starting wars over trespassing will not affect your reputation...
[atamus1] the russians will declare war when i tell em to leave my land
[atamus1] cuz they really really wanted the land on the other side bad
[TheChief] thanks
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...actually, reputation in civ3 works much differently...
[nidz-onehalf] or is it all random on the issue?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...there is no one number anywhere...
[OG_Quantum] soren:tell us more
[TheChief] differently? please tell more
[Wexu] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, I think AI should be a little more aggressive in the early game, you can pretty much build cities everywhere without defense and they don't surprise attack them. What's up with that? Or have I just been lucky?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...it is more an issue of specific actions (breaking trade deals, backing out of military alliances, etc...)
[atamus1] can you not outright destroy an enemys city
[atamus1] i tried dropping 4-6 icmbs and nothing just brought it to one person and thats it
[gamadictG] You can't destroy enemy cities with nukes...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...so the AI will remember not to make a military alliance with you b/c you abused that treaty in the past...
[Killertox] ?
[[DL]Aldrick] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: Will there be a patch where you add the option to disable viewing the workers do their work? because even with no animations itīs slow as hell on a amd1000 with 512mb ram..
[atamus1] cuz they built one town on an island so small i couldnt put troops on and bombarding just hurt stuff
[Guest20271] does it remember from save game to save game?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Nukes do not destroy enemy cities... it used to work that way but it was deemed too powerful.
[^UvaSabre^] Civ 3 = owns :D
[TheChief] .10Perhaps the patch could help us real players be aware of when we're about to break such a deal... hint hint
[atamus1] so there is no way of doing it
[^UvaSabre^] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, let met just say, great job. :)
[ProvostHarrison] Aldrick, I have an Athlon 700 and I have no speed problems with a screen almost full of workers doing there stuff. Do you have a driver issue or something?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] [DL]Aldrick: it might be a video card issue, which we are looking into. Many people are experiencing no performance issues on much lower machines.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] tahnks
[_Bargle_] Has there been any discussion on weather Multiplayer will be added to Civ 3, or perhaps via an expansion?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] i mean, thanks
[^UvaSabre^] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, on friday i played from 2:00 PM to 10:30 PM
[ACS_MarkG] No mp discussion guyes, thanks
[^UvaSabre^] is that a bit extreme? :D
[atamus1] multiplayer! multiplayer!
[Guest20271] I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory?
[atamus1] oh
[Killertox] Anyone here?
[ProvostHarrison] The strange thing is though Soren, I have a GeForce with new drivers on XP and should be having massive speed problems with graphics but it is working beautifully :-)
[_Bargle_] Bummer, it's the only "Feature" that I want.. :(
* _Bargle_ is sad..
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] hey, computers are screwy...
[Sunstone] I noticed that the AI is distributing its workers in its capital quite badly or the sourrounding squares are not irrigated etc.
[^UvaSabre^] imo you dont need multiplay that much
[ProvostHarrison] UvaSabre, you should have gone for a long playing session ;-)
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +m
[ACS_MarkG] 1 min moderated
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...if only the Amiga had won out.. then there would only be one system. :)
[ACS_MarkG] since we had some new people, some new explanations
[ACS_MarkG] the chat is about AI and the game mechanics
[ACS_MarkG] it's not about MP, the patch or video card problems
[ACS_MarkG] thank you for your help
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: -m
[gamadictG] MarkG...
* ^UvaSabre^ is happy to say he isnt using a java applet :D
[[DL]Aldrick] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: Itīs more the time it takes to see all workers move around and doing their work, see 100 workers run around your country fixing things takes alot of time, if you could skip that part it would be great :) No driver issue as you can see..
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] sometimes the AI chooses not to distribute its workers on food tiles if it can't grow (needs a Hospital, for example...)
[RedFox] Soren - whats the situation with the Worker AI. They are always digging up MY improvements when automated...
[atamus1] yeah get rid of em.
[gamadictG] Have you thought about having it moderated the whole time, and then just having us send you questions, and then you picking the relevant ones'...??
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Adrick: Be sure to look at your prefs
[The_Eli] I'm sure someone asked it before... but are you going to fix in the patch the problem with the AI building cities in the middle of your empire? or "stealing" your borders?
[Sheltem] *raises hand*
[Guest08363] what does the mobilization do?
[^UvaSabre^] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, did you program Queen Elizibeth to be bitchy towards the end? :D
[pg] gamadictG: i second that..
[atamus1] makes the people more war ready i think
[Guest20271] *raised hand*
[snowhawk001] [Shift + A] Workers wont destroy current improvements.
[^UvaSabre^] Guest06625, look in your FAQ
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] RedFox: If you press "Shift+A" instead of "A" to automate your workers,they will not touch previously existing improvements
[libredr] How will you correct the "archers killing tanks" issue, by for example giving bonus to modern units against old-fashioned ?
* ChrisTheCat wonders if the AI uses workers on a nationwide system, or one unit at a time? Had to send workers to the Aztec empire, pay for a right of passage, and build roads to their many coal in order to trade coal with them...they never built the roads to the resources on their own.
[Wexu] ACS_MarkG, maybe you should give everyone voices (and put channel to +m) and then remove them for every unnecessary flooding.
[RedFox] :)
[^UvaSabre^] Wexu, good thinkin ;)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Elizabeth is... crafty. Yes, I programmed that!
[Vorret] If you do something bad to a civ in the beginning and this civ has not meet any other civ... will the other civbe aware f yiur act ?
[atamus1] yeah a bonus against old fashion would be right because archers or warriors shouldnt have a chance
[^UvaSabre^] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, she was a real bitch to me when i was her best friend for a long time
[Snailpower] ..5can i ask os question?
[Guest02849] Is there anything you can do to prevent defections, besides culture war. like say 10 military units.
[^UvaSabre^] then all of a sudden she was like, give me your ivory or DIE!@!@
[ACS_MarkG] guest20271, ask
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] vorret: depends if that civ is still around by the end of the game...
[Guest20271] I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory?
[Sheltem] Does the veternancy of a unit affect its combat capacities at all, beyond adding a hp per level?
[ACS_MarkG] snailpower, i a moment
[Snailpower] will civ3 go for a linux version?
[ACS_MarkG] snailpower, nothing has been decided on that so far
[Snailpower] .5k tx
[^UvaSabre^] oh and of course the only resource i can ever get locally is saltpepper, and thats from one source, i had to kill russia for it :D
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] the chance of city defections can be lessened by a) troops b) no civil disorder c) we love the king day d) culture and e) distance to respective capitals. e) is especially important.
[ACS_MarkG] d) culture: of captured city or your civs?
[^UvaSabre^] oh yea, Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, whats the purple puffy smoke emiitted from the terrain?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] however, troops are very effective...as a rule of thumb, one troops disuades one citizen from thinking of defecting...
[Guest02849] thanks
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Mark: both
[tulcas] Soren, the AI is great, very challenging, is there any plan for a better system to allow moving a mass of units from point A to Point B, besides clicking on each one an issuing an individual goto, and are there any plans to implement a more robust queue system?
[^UvaSabre^] tulcas, armies
[Guest20271] raised hand - arm is tiring :-)
[ProvostHarrison] UvaSabre, I think you are looking at fireworks from a we love the king day...
[libredr] Maybe e) should be tuned down : a lot of countries used to have colonies far away from their capital.
[Vorret] What is the higest pupolation (the little number) you can reach in aperfect position ?
[^UvaSabre^] ah :D
[atamus1] guest20271 hahahaa just ask the question
[Guest20271] I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] defections measure the culture of the two civs in the city itself and as a nation overall
[atamus1] yeah whats the highest i got it to 32
[connorkimbro] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: are you all considering making e) less important? taking over the world on a huge map is virtually impossible. . . the game should be hard, but not impossible. .
[TheChief] .10Soren - how does the AI determine if it is the only holder for an advancement? I don't believe I can do that, can I? Yes, I did RTFM...Would that be cheating?? Oh yes, thanks for a great game..
[Qurna] Question: Is the game REALLY done or will you patch it for the next two years?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] libredr: yes, and those colonies often revolted
[nidz-onehalf] ACS_MarkG: mute, then voice people at random...
[^UvaSabre^] connorkimbro, thats why u specify the winning conditions before the game
[ProvostHarrison] Vorret, if you had a city surrounded with flood plains, all with wheat and irrigated/RR, you would have a total of 147 food = population of 74
[libredr] Yes but they were not absorbed by other civilizations
[tulcas] i understand armies i am more concerned with issues like moving about a dozen workers around, or moving a bunch of troops and airplanes across the globe for a battle, not all of them being armies
[Vorret] wow... nice
[atamus1] quick im leaving whats the biggest size town!!!
[Argeye] Is there a plan to be able to move more than one unit in a stack at a time other than with an army? It's kind of tough to be a non-fighting government and gain leaders =/
[atamus1] 74!!!!!
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] e) is more attuned to relative, not absolute distance. The point is that the closer you get to his/her capital, the harder it is to keep cities. Sort of like a spring.
[Vorret] 74 would make like 5 billiob people lol
[Vorret] :)
[ProvostHarrison] Yep, quick calculation, but you would have to design the region yourself...
[connorkimbro] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: Could this be nullified by capturing an AI civ's capital?
[Guest20271] I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory?
[Killertox] I WOULD JUST SAY THAT YOU GUYS ON FIRAXIS HAVE GIVEN CIV NEW LIFE!!!!!
[LoQtus] soren: oh, just answer Guest20271's question :) he's ask it at least 5 times now, he deserves an answer on basis of persistence alone ;)
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +m
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] connor: possibly, depends on where the capital is moved to...
[ACS_MarkG] yeah, moderation
[ACS_MarkG] so that guest finally gets his answer :)
[ACS_MarkG] Soren? :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] There are several AI subsystems: civ-wide, city, unit, tech, etc. ANd they communicate between each other. I discussed this some in my Apolyton interview.
[ACS_MarkG] indeed you did :)
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: -m
[Congestion] There has been quite some dissent about the level of 'pop-up' information in the game. Not being told when one of your Wonders expires, just to mention one. Are there any plans to add pop-ups as a preference?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] basically, a high-level system will determine a goal, like offense or defense and the lower-level systems will weigh their decisions accordingly (like should I build a Spearman or Archer)
[nidz-onehalf] let's keep it to AI questions
[ACS_MarkG] http://apolyton.net/misc/interviews/civ3_2sorenjohnson.shtml
[TheDarkside] Soren: will units ever be something you can trade with other civs?
[ProvostHarrison] AI and mechanics, this is relevent nidz
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Congestion: we have looked at the pop-up issue for the patch. Sorry I have to be so vague...
[Guest20271] thank you
[Congestion] That's ok, I understand. Thanks.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] no problem.. it is hard to read all the questions
[^UvaSabre^] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, thank you for making some tribes peaceful, seems like they are all out to get me and my bitches :)
[nidz-onehalf] i suggest a +m and then random +v. it's the easiest way
* ChrisTheCat wonders if Soren can comment on how the AI uses workers? Seems to be one of the problem spots for the AI.
[^UvaSabre^] nidz-onehalf, nah they might be afk
[ACS_MarkG] we'll keep like this for now nidz
[nidz-onehalf] QUESTION: does the AI ever "backstab"? like: This CIV is kinda small military, but great scientific. So first i'll trade all techs, then whipe em out...
[Matte] Sorry missed the begining. Have Soren been informed about the senseless moving of all AI units that slows down the game?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] one thing I have enjoyed while reading threads about the game is that some people think the AI is too peaceful and some think the other way. Hopefully, they feel this way not just from personal perspective but because the AI will vary its strategies from game to game.
[ProvostHarrison] Soren, another question: Do you find the naval movement, especially of latterday units, too slow?
[ACS_MarkG] "Game to game"?!?
[LoQtus] 'game to game'? randomly or depending on how the game develops?
[^UvaSabre^] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, towards the beginning they are peaceful, then they think they are badass and go all out and demand my pants
[ACS_MarkG] You mean according to settings of the map and it's situation?
[libredr] The AI is more aggressive in some games ???
[connorkimbro] yikes. Game to game based on reasoning i hope? :)
[ProvostHarrison] I quite like the AI as it is. They war for a reason and you can get on with the game...but they are not defenceless either...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] sorry about all the "senseless" unit movement. Basically, if the AI has nothing to do with its offensive units, they jsut "patrol." We are looking at ways to speed this up...
[Argeye] Is the AI building cities in remote places, without any resources at all near them a bug in the AI that makes them just want to build and expand no matter what the surrounding area is like? I've taken over MANY cities through culture that are just usless to the AI civ =/
[TheChief] .10Soren, at what point will an enemy AI give up on attacking? I've had the Greeks pour people into fortified mountain cities? It seems like they're pretty hard headed.
[TheChief] .10Sorry, Egyptians were the culprits.
[connorkimbro] * We are looking at ways to speed this up...* oh thank you!! this was majorly slowing down the end game, ESP on a huge map.. . and ESP if there is a war going on, having to wait for the computer to figure out all the battles, etc. .
[Mark13] Was there a mechanism whereby the AI gets advantages according to its situation? The story about 20-strong armies not taking a hitpoint of a lone warrior is one I've heard all too often :-)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] because of the strategic resource system, there is no such thing as a "useless" city in Civ 3 (which is not to say that you should cram cities together... that would be a mistake.) But what might look like useless desert might someday become oil heaven.
