Civ3 Patch&Chat Friday, February 15, 2002
The second civ3 patch was almost here, and we discussed the new changes on
our irc channel with Firaxis!
In red, the operator. In
blue, Firaxis team members. Many thanks to
Jeff Morris, Dan Magaha, Soren Johnson, Javier Sobrado, Mike Breitkreutz and
Barry Caudill
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[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] why is that?
[korn469] that would have ended the size 6 exploit
[Guest19382] you put the game out way to soon
[acemo] now that a public beta team is coming, will updates happen faster?
[Guest19382] you should have made it better
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] did our size 6 fix not work?
[korn469] i've heard it does
[korn469] like i said i haven't had a chance to dowload 1.17f
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] then why should we empty the food box after pop rushing?
[Libertarian] Soren: Do civs become annoyed if you abort negotiations?
[Rpodos] I just think it would be MORE of a penalty.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] korn: i see...
[korn469] so i haven't got to test it out personally
[ACS_MarkG] glad we know it 19382
[Acooper] good question lib
[notyoueither] damn good question
[Nikolai] when I try to start the newest editor, i get this message: Runtime Error! Program: ...lai\infogrames interactive\civilization III\civ3edit.exe abnormal program terminatin
[acemo] Soren: how much better do you think the AI can be?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] right now, I am assuming pop rushing might have been weakened too much instead of too little, but only time will tell.
[korn469] but if the food box is empty then it would kill the instant growth from the food box size changing
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Lib: no
[starmouse] I think I have found how to generate barbarian civs and cities in 1.17f
[Acooper] Starmouse: how?
[JohnPaulJones] pray tell mouse
[Guest19382] I just want CivIII Multiplayer Gold Edition
[thebug40] anyone want to direct me to an explanation of this pop rush, pop 6 exploit ?
[Asher274] I want scenarios
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] korn: the fix was to half the food before the city grows...
[ACS_MarkG] 19382, you'll have it. eventually
[ACS_MarkG] asher, same response ;)
[starmouse] how to make barb civs - crate a new world with less than maximum number of civs, abandon that game, use quick start. I seem to get barb civs every time. use multi cheat to check the map after 3950 bc
[korn469] ok
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] acemo: there is no limit.
[Acooper] Starmouse: post this on 'Poly
[Rpodos] What's "quick start"?
[Rob333] What about aborting trade negotiations? Does the other civ get "Annoyed"?
[starmouse] it's already posted on apolyton
[Nikolai] soren: do you know what the problem is? why can't I start the editor?
[Asher274] its the button you never push in the civ start screan
[Acooper] You da mouse!
[Rpodos] Any sense of the barb civ's attitude?
[starmouse] lol @ acooper
[Libertarian] Rob: No.
[Gramphos] Nikolai: Your editor probably has one r another corrupt bug. Get the ziped download
[starmouse] I got a peace treaty with a barb civ :)
[Vorpal] I did not understand one item in the readme. It made reference to a 10 second delay in path choosing. Am I to understand that I will save 10 secs per turn or 10 secs per turn per peice?
[korn469] soren or mike is there any way to make the submarine ability (aka invisable) count toward ground units?
[Nikolai] ok
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] rob333: generally speaking, the way you conduct your negotiations does not have a great affect on the AI's attitude....
[Nikolai] thanks
[hardjoy] 3editor question : any news about scripting? -and is there a way to disable leader pictures etc for scenarios? :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] korn: does the flag not work for ground units?
[Rob333] Thanks. Then shopping around for the best "deal" doesn't hurt.
[Gramphos] http://apolyton.net/civ3/files/patches/Civ3Edit.zip
[ImmortalWombat] scripting? *watches pig fly past*
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] korn: I don't know. I think it should. Have you tried it?
[korn469] i've tested it but it doesn't seem to work
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] it says "Submarine" but it means "Invisible"
[ACS_MarkG] wombat, get back to ctp2 :p
[ImmortalWombat] lol
[korn469] i set warriors with this
[korn469] but i could still see them
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] hmmm... we'll have to take a look.
[ImmortalWombat] its more fun here
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] Events: maybe. Scripting: No. I've answered this before. I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs.
[Acooper] Good info Soren, thanks
[Libertarian] Request for the hopper: Queue messages that fly by into a list and optionalize Domestic Nag
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] you mean, you could see the enemy warriors?
[korn469] yes
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] That's not to say there won't be a way to script events -- just not a scripting language
[starmouse] power to create bugs? sounds like a curse spell in harry potter :)
[hagbart] i like the domestic messages
[JohnPaulJones] The script engine in the like of RR Tycoon 2 was nice though
[ImmortalWombat] Mike: or to fix them, add concepts, ideas, game features... check out the CtP2 mods for some examples
[ImmortalWombat] no-ones made bugs yet
[Asher274] mmmhairy pot
[JohnPaulJones] events i mean
[Libertarian] Hag: Then you would select "Yes"
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] i'll check it out
[Rpodos] How high up the military chain can barbs go? (both as a civ and from huts)
[hardjoy] mike : thanx, but how about the "starcraft" inspired scenario tools you talked about in previous chats?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] But there's no reason the same level of power couldn't be given without a scripting language
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] barbs stop at horsemen... but you can change that via the editor
[Ironikinit] rpodos: horsemen
[Sirotnikov] ok, mike - then deliver :)
[starmouse] barbs seem to run like any other civ, I saw one make a settler
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] hardjoy: That would be more along the lines of what I'm thinking.
[Asher274] never seen a barb civ
[Kilroy] rpodos: yes, I noticed that all units are available to barbs now, according to the editor
[Guest19382] Here's what you need to do very soon. 1. Multiplayer 2. Zooms for mapeditor 3. Scenerio creator 4. More units and a unit creator thats easy to create animations
[ImmortalWombat] Mike: do it then. You haven't. If you think you can, I'll be exstatic. I think thats nads.
[sachmo] is that all they need to do?
[Rob333] Why are the AI civs so nasty all the time? They talk down to you even if you're about to crush them.
[Sirotnikov] we complain about a lack of a tool. if you think you can do better with out a language - gi ahead
[Rob333] They need serious attitude adjustment
[notyoueither] Mike. Can editor evolution be influenced by gifts of beer?
[Asher274] all the better reason to stop on them rob
[Sirotnikov] go ahead
[Nikolai] didn't work... I get the same message still...
[Asher274] *stomp
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] notyoueither: no comment ;)
[korn469] soren
[korn469] i'm testing it right now
[starmouse] if you want to change the attitude of the barb civs, edit diplomacy.txt
[notyoueither] Mike. It's on it's way ;)
[Acooper] 19382; We've heard you, shhhh
[Rpodos] Waypoints would be nice.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] yes, diplomacy.txt can let you change how dialog works in many ways.
[ImmortalWombat] *NOTE* The editor's a good start. Its all that could have been expected from a perfectly normal sequel to civ2
[starmouse] hehe.... could be fun having a Monty Python-themed diplomacy.txt - "I fart in your general direction"
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] just be warned... it took our writer about 3-4 months to write it
[Rob333] LOL
[Acooper] LOL @ the mouse
[Asher274] are there any color blind players that have used that option -Im just wondering cuz it doesnt seem to help me much
[Sirotnikov] lol@starmouse
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] of course, if you take advantage of the tags, it doesn't need to be nearly so long
[hardjoy] 3lol. theres a lot of text editing to do for expanded scens
[Rpodos] LOL... I think that answers the french version question ;)
[Nikolai] hmmmm... I get the same message from all my scenarios... but I have the right patch, as far as I know...
[Guest19382] I'm leaving you don't give any answers just "No comment" or give us the run around
[thebug40] siro, you got your first comment in the forums
[Asher274] so will a mod I downloaded yesterday work with the patch? and if not will it work if I download the correct editor?
[notyoueither] bon voyage
[Acooper] g'bye 19382
[korn469] soren
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] yes
[Libertarian] Bye, Not.
[korn469] hmmm this time it appears to work :)
[Sirotnikov] thanks for the update
[Nikolai] asher: if I should look at my own game; no
[Kilroy] how large is the diplomatic penalty for going to war with a civ soon after you sign a treaty with them, provided the treaty didn't have any trades or gifts or cities or anything else associated with it?
[notyoueither] Not Not
[Rob333] Soren: tech question: Did you use A* for your path-finding algo?
[Libertarian] Oh, sorry.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] i would expect it to work because it's not linked to naval units at all
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] Asher: As long as it wasn't created with the bad editor from yesterday's initiali patch you shouldn't have any problems.In general BIC files are backwards- and forwards-compatible (until version 3.00 anyway)
[korn469] i don't know why i could see them before
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] maybe you had a "see subs" unit?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] rob: yes
[Asher274] thanx Mike
[Rob333] sweet
[korn469] i don't think so
[Nikolai] does soren or anyone know what's wrong with my editor?
[Libertarian] dude. what's mine say?
[Sirotnikov] hey asher
[sachmo] someone asked this question yesterday and I was very curious about it...One 1.17 is installed, can you remove the 1.16 patch?
[Asher274] not that again libertarian
[Asher274] lol
[ImmortalWombat] sweet!
[acemo] dude!
[Asher274] hey Sirotnikov
[JohnPaulJones] dude ? whatcha talkin bout ?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] Nikolai: I'm not sure what's wrong with your editor. I haven't seen that problem before. Have you tried tech support?
[ImmortalWombat] dude, where's my car?
[notyoueither] Sorn. Is the AI military tactics a work in progress? Is it going to get better based on how we brag we beat it?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] A* is good, but it can be slow on the large maps... basically, all of the long pauses between turns result from the pathfinder (assuming you have animations turned off...)
[Nikolai] no I haven't
[korn469] also soren did u get my post about what happens to armies?
[Sirotnikov] i still claim you simply don't get my arguement in the OT ;)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] and the pathfinder takes a long time when it has more tiles to search through, so it is map size which is causing the slowdown (NOT number of civs)
[Sirotnikov] perhaps we should MP over it one day
[JohnPaulJones] did you dumb down the A* for the sea units Soren ?
[ImmortalWombat] one day...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] korn: yes, thank you. I have already fixed it.
[Montezuma] Hi civers
[Rob333] I learned about A* a few years ago. It blew me away when I realized how elegant it is. I can see how it consumes lots of proc. cycles. Good job, tho.
[Nikolai] mayb eI should try to restart my computer... it's just windows you know;)
[starmouse] I'm curious ... if the newer BIC file after 3.00 isn't compatible with older ones, what changes are there in the format?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] Nikolai: That's true....
[korn469] ok cool :) did it make it into 1.17? or will we have to wait for the next patch?
[Vorpal] large map = slow map, check. Does the turn speed also depend on how much of the map is revealed?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS1] starmouse: Version 3.00 is still backwards-compatible (i.e., the editor can load older BIC files) but it's not forwards-compatible. The 1.17 game will not recognize v3.00 BIC files (hence the error message).
[starmouse] okay
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] in previous civ games (including SMAC), the pathfinding was more heuristic, which is faster but not complete. Which is why it screwed up from time to time. We felt that computer were finally fast enough to handle pure pathfinding. I hope we were right. :)
[Asher274] uhhhh i dunno bout that soren
[ACS_MarkG] soren is zoc related to good pathfinding?
[Asher274] i dont like to stress the puter anyway :)
[hardjoy] I find the game painstakingly slow as it progresses
[starmouse] I found it strange tho how a standard map was fast even in the modern era but a large map would have 3-minute waits at end of turn
[Rpodos] What hardware is most related (i.e., upgrades) to the pathfinding delay?
[hardjoy] good question
[Ironikinit] ram i bet
[Vorpal] a 3 min wait? Ha! that's fast! I had a 10 minute wait. Uphill, both ways!
[Fnbrown] Just wanted to say thanks to the Firaxis guys... nice to have some access to the programmers. :-)
[JohnPaulJones] CPU ?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] we were tempted to limit map size depending on memory (the most improtant factor), but we didn't like restricting people. Still, it's a pseudo-restraint anyway, so perhaps we should have been more harsh.
[Asher274] yes thanks
[Rpodos] Marla's map in the modern era....
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ram is most important... then CPU.
[Rpodos] Thanks
[JohnPaulJones] All in all i like the code - its faster than PBEMs anyway lol
[Asher274] ..whines....but i like da big map
[Fnbrown] Recommended RAM?
[King_of_Camelot] 1Will Firaxis ever release new units?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] especially CPU's with a good cache. I pity those trying to use the old celerons (of course, they are below our spec anyway)
[hagbart] i like standard maps
[Ironikinit] good q, king of cam
[Asher274] no comment ? lol
[sachmo] Firaxis-can the 1.16 patch be removed after 1.17 is installed?
[Anunikoba] Soren- I am glad that map size wasn't restrained. Perhaps people just aren't aware (don't GET it) that huge-mongous maps may cause serious slowdowns.
[hagbart] you just have to eat lots of bananas
[Anunikoba] I play on 256x256 maps- and am happy.
[Vorpal] one prob with AI - attacks your peicemeal, doesn't take advantage of roads
[Godking] WARNING - Big Map equals Slow Game
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