Apolyton Civilization Site: Miscellaneous: Chat: Transcript: Civ3 Patch&Chat Friday, February 15, 2002; Page 1

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Civ3 Patch&Chat Friday, February 15, 2002

The second civ3 patch was almost here, and we discussed the new changes on our irc channel with Firaxis! In red, the operator. In blue, Firaxis team members. Many thanks to Jeff Morris, Dan Magaha, Soren Johnson, Javier Sobrado, Mike Breitkreutz and Barry Caudill

*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +m
[ACS_MarkG] Greetings to everyone and welcome
[ACS_MarkG] to one more Apolyton chat
[ACS_MarkG] the second patch is fresh(Firaxis showed us their love yesterday ;))
[ACS_MarkG] and we're here with Jeff Morris and Dan Magaha to talk about it(and more!)
[ACS_MarkG] If you're all nice boys we'll be fine and have this chat unmoderated
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] and if not then do we commence the spanking?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] ...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] timing
[ACS_MarkG] this means not having 4 questions per second
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] k
*** Joins: Soren_Johnson_Firaxis (~Java_user@.60)
[ACS_MarkG] lets try it
*** Joins: Branqua (~Java_user@defatps01.deflaw.com)
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: -m
[Gramphos] Is my Worker (Egypt) a bug?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] No
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Localization change
[ACS_MarkG] and please welcome Soren Jooooooohnson! :)
[Gramphos] When it is a (Roman) Worker, and I'm Egypt?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] If you captured it, no
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] hello
[Libertarian] To everyone at Firaxis, this was quite a comprehensive patch. Good job.
[ProvostHarrison] I think your 'o' key is stuck Markos ;-)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] i can't stay for too long... gotta meeting.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] thank you
[RevStang] soren, how goes the coding on the stack movement? :)
[Gramphos] I think it should read Worker (Roman)
[ACS_MarkG] ok, rule #1: no questions about multiplayer
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Well, if you joined it to a city, it would be an egyptian
[ProvostHarrison] I have been using the stack movement feature, very handy.
[Gramphos] but if you say it is as it is supposed to be, then I'll not complain
[PaulnADHE] yaaaaaay
[JayPiJay] wonders if the AI appreciates when its given back its captured units
*** Joins: Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1 (~Java_user@.200)
[ACS_MarkG] frequent chat question #1: any plans for an expansion?
[Gramphos] I did not oin a city.
[Gramphos] I did captre it
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] no comment
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] yes, the AI likes getting its units back...
[ACS_MarkG] good :)
[GodKing] Great Patch. Any future plans you can give to us...
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] I am expanding my waistline, if that helps you out Mark
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I'm saying if you did join it to a city, it would be egyptian...units have nationality
[Gramphos] It was on a city tile that got rased due to no culture, size 1
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +v Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1
[JayPiJay] :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...in fact, it will have a worse attitude toward you if you keep a lot of its workers as slaves.
[ACS_MarkG] one more welcome to Javier
[ProvostHarrison] Talk about coy :-)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] hmmm...drop me a line about it and I'll check it out...jmorris@firaxis.com
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] hi all
[ixnay37] hello
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Hi there Javiar
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] ;-P
*** Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS was kicked by ACS_MarkG () 2�Script For MEGANET2� 3,0()
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] HAW!
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] bwahahahaha
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] thank you
[ACS_MarkG] just a dl :)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] ah
[Branqua] what city is Firaxis located in?
[ProvostHarrison] ?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Baltimore
[PaulnADHE] havnt tried patch yet, anything on grouping of loaded units in a stack?
[spank-it] is software piracy effecting game sales?
[ACS_MarkG] so, why did this patch took so long? or not?
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Hunt Valley to be precise, right down the street from Ripken mansion
[GuestJon_Miller] Any plans for additional Patches, future projects, ect
[Gramphos] Was that email address for me?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] QA was handled differently for one...more infogrames involvment
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] jmorris@firaxis.com
[ProvostHarrison] I don't think it did take that long, just came by surprise more than anything...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] send me the details
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] plus, this was more of a "feautures" patch
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] spank-it: does software piracy ever *not* affect software sales?
[ACS_MarkG] Provost that was thanks to the new PR policy ;)
[ChrisShaffer] Soren, will the AI have a worse attitude toward you if you use lots of their workers to increase the populations of your own cities?
[ProvostHarrison] LOL
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Chris: as long as you don't then sacrifice their citizens, the AI prefers if you add them to your cities.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] as opposed to using them as slaves
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +v Soren_Johnson_Firaxis
[ChrisShaffer] Soren -- thx
[Libertarian] Soren, your AI code is especially impressive. What is your education and experience?
[Dimorier_Maximus] I never add those nasty slaves to my cities ;-)
[rdomarat] Soren, the AI never seems to stack large number of catapults/cannon/artillery to soften up cities during an invasion. Was this a deliberate choice because your stack of bombardment units are too slow?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] I've got an MS in Computer Science from Stanford
[Immortal_Khan] Is there a way to view your maps in the Editor in a zoomed out mode?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] and I worked on AI for awhile at EA
[spank-it] as a member of the military overseas i had trouble buying a verison that would ship to my military address...
[ACS_MarkG] Was the way stack movement was implement a necessity or a choice? I mean , was a ctp2-like stack model possible?
[ProvostHarrison] Yeah, that would be a real handy feature in the editor if you had a smaller window/full map view of the world you have created.
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Send a check to...
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Khan not at the moment, from what I understand it is difficult to add zoom to the editor
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] rdomarat: stacking artillery is a somewhat extreme strategy, which is usually hard for the AI. Maybe I should have concentrated more on that option, though...
[DaXX6] If I take a tank against a stack of several knights, i only get one attack and my turn is over. if I assault a square with 1 knight, i conquer it and am allowed to attack again. why the penalty for assaulting stacks?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] It's my industrial age bread and butter
[ChrisShaffer] Question: Why do the city governors disobey instructions to "emphasize food|commerce|production" ? I choose "emphasize commerce and emphasize production" and the governor places my citizens on a 3/0/0 grassland wheat square instead of a 1/2/2 forest fur square. Why?
* ChrisShaffer notes that the city wouldn't starve if the forest was selected instead of the grassland
[Immortal_Khan] how about what Provost suggested by adding a mini map window to the Editor?
[DaXX6] by a stack i dont mean a city, i mean a stack of enemies on the open terrain
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We're aware of the feature request..We'll do waht we can
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] the editor feature
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] you shouldn't be able to attack twice with a knight.
[Immortal_Khan] Thanx
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] np
[DaXX6] i am attacking with a tank
[DaXX6] that can attack multiple times
[Libertarian] Were the suggestions from players at fan sites helpful as you considered what to do for the patch?
[DaXX6] the tank can attack multiple times if i assault squares with one unit inside
[DaXX6] if i assault stacked squares, i only get 1 attack with my tank
[DaXX6] why
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] concerning stack movement: there is no perfect solution. Our solution works great for some cases because it has so little overhead (since you never have to actually organize the stack. Hit 'j' and click)...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...of course, certain playing styles would work better with a more comprehensive solution...
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] oh... that's a known bug. We're working on it.
[Kaeregaard] Question: Will my old saves work after I upgrade to the new patch
[ProvostHarrison] One useful feature for the stack would be so it just moves those activated not those fortified, for example, when moving workers out of a city to clean up pollution, you don't want to bring the whole lot with you...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I like the stack implementation because it's reduced 8-12 move orders to 2 or 3...big improvement
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...so it's a tough call. The solution we came up with was also simply, which reduced the risk of introducing bugs...
[JayPiJay] ...or smac player ;)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] ...but of course, there already is one known bug with stack movement...
[ACS_MarkG] tough question(probably): didnt you see the need for stack movement before the release?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] "was also simple"
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Hey cooper!
[DaXX6] units should be allowed to GoTo boats.... allow them to auto-load
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Shaggy's in the house
[JayPiJay] but that bug would definately be a feature if you could re-add units :)) (wishful thinking)
[Acooper] hello all
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] markG: we should have, but the end of projects get so crazy that it is easy to miss obvious improvements sometimes
[ProvostHarrison] You can readd the units to an army can't you?
[RevStang] does a sentried unit get the fortified bonus?
[Guest123] When negotiating peace, how does the AI evaluate you, by Power, Culture, or Score? If Power or Culture, can we get numerical representation of those items in a future patch/expansion?
[Libertarian] Were the suggestions from players at Apolyton helpful in your considerations for the patch?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] revStang: yes
[Sirotnikov] greetings and salutations earthlings and civ lovers
[JayPiJay] after you get the MAccademy like ?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Gest123: by power mostly
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] greets Sirotnikov
[ACS_MarkG] Jeff have we surpassed 1 mil copies yet?
[ProvostHarrison] Hello there Siro.
[pitk] why have you fixed the city size 6 zhing? who said it was a bug? ;)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Apolyton has always been a useful source of feedback...
[Sirotnikov] Thank you Sombrero
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] No business stuff...we're doing exceptionally we
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] well
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] pitk: nice try
[PaulnADHE] leaving work now to play Civ III
[Sirotnikov] yo ph
[pitk] :P
[GodKing] any future plans you can let us know about?
* ChrisShaffer wonders if there will be an answer to the question about city governors
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Not yet..
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Chris: please repeat
[Libertarian] Thank you, Soren. It feels good to be acknowledged.
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] We plan to make more great games ;-)
*** Joins: Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS (~Java_user@.187)
[Dimorier_Maximus] Is Javier a phony?
[ACS_MarkG] Has there been a change on the people working for civ3 since the release of simgolf? or is it two separate teams?
[RevStang] [ChrisShaffer] Question: Why do the city governors disobey instructions to "emphasize food|commerce|production" ? I choose "emphasize commerce and emphasize production" and the governor places my citizens on a 3/0/0 grassland wheat square instead of a 1/2/2 forest fur square. Why?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] You know it
[m_m_x] how simgolf doing?
*** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +v Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS
[rdomarat] When atttempting to trade with the AI for luxuries you don't have and offering luxuries that they don't have, the AI always wants 2 to 3 times more than they are giving up. If this a reflection n the fact that my Civ may be twice to three times the size of their Civ, or is it just the AI making things harder for us humans (PS : The AI kicked my ass last night, thanks Soren!)
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] hahaha Dimorier.. I ask myself that every day
[casaubon] any information on the "late game crashes" and/or possible resolution (I know, that may be too general )
[sparkit] will the editor one day able to make goals like capture the flag?
[ACS_MarkG] and the man behind the editor, Miiiiiiiike Breitkreutzzzzzz! :)
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Beer in the hizouse
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Fixed in v117
[Sirotnikov] In the editor there are invisible buttons to add espionage missions.
[pitk] about programming, how come recalculation of trade networks is so slow?
* +Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO thinks MarkG secretly wants to be a club DJ
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] Golf was 6th on NPD top 10 last week ;-)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] let me know if '1950's' fatals exist in new games on v1.17f
[Sirotnikov] will there be a mechanism to allow us create new missions?
[casaubon] ok
[Guest123] Is Power recalculated within the player's turn or do you negotiate based on Power ranking of previous turn?
[JayPiJay] rdomarat: they might be nicer to you if you were not such a good player and far ahead of the AI - or maybe they just hate you lol
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Chris: the governors do not ignore the instructions... however, the governor put a high weight on food, so sometimes that overrides the prefs. If it was a 2/0/0 square, I bet the governor would have picked the forest.
[pitk] and also prog., how come pathfinder wasnt right the first time? soren have you coded the whole thing yourself?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] power is calculated between turns (after the cities finish building)
[Sirotnikov] better yet: is it possible to create a mechanism to allow us to create new espionage missions?
[Libertarian] Will Civs still ignore requests to leave in 1.17f? (You know, saying they will leave, but then ignoring you...)
[Sirotnikov] or is it hardcoded?
[Sirotnikov] :)
[Guest18368] f
[Guest123] To increase your Power, do you need to have strategic resources connected by road or is it enough that they are within your territory?
[pitk] also, can the end of turn button be moved from diplomacy button. it sucks, the position of that button
[JayPiJay] Soren: What pathfinder(s) did you use ?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] they need to be connected by road...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] i believe the Ai is more responsive to requests to get out. which is not to say they always will.
[DaXX6] Soren: is there anyway we can get better control over our citzens when the city governor is on? he seems to turn scientists into tax collectors quite frequently... perhaps he can be trained to follow my lead?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] our pathfinding is basically A*, and we wrote it ourselves.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Sirotnikov: regarding esp. missions, I don't think you will be able to create new missions but you will be able to configure the existing missions.
[ProvostHarrison] I've never had any bother with the pathfinder myself...
[pitk] uh, and clicking on lines of text instead of buttons of text is annoying too. thats about it as far as my minor rants :)
[Guest123] When the AI evaluates your military strength, does quantity or quality of units matter?
[ChrisShaffer] repeated question at Soren's request: Question: Why do the city governors disobey instructions to "emphasize food|commerce|production" ? I choose "emphasize commerce and emphasize production" and the governor places my citizens on a 3/0/0 grassland wheat square instead of a 1/2/2 forest fur square. The city would not starve if the governor used the forest. Why does it use the grassland?
[Guest18368] Maybe this was asked , but will there be a patch to the editor to add techs and units
[RevStang] side note on governors -- Extreme thanks for auto-managing happiness!!!
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] Chris: did you see my response?
[ChrisShaffer] ah, I see your answer above Soren
[ChrisShaffer] yes
[Sirotnikov] oh cool, thanks mike.
[JayPiJay] I like the way the AI returns to the neasest piece of nomansland rather than return its nearest city ala smac
[ProvostHarrison] Surely the forest/fur should be 1/3/2? ;-)
[Sirotnikov] though i sure hoped i could, since, i have some ideas
[ChrisShaffer] so then the question is: Why does the governor override the prefs?
* ChrisShaffer was in despotism Provost
[Sirotnikov] which i even posted here 2 years ago :(
[ProvostHarrison] OK, I'll let you off this once then ;-)
* ChrisShaffer chuckles
[Libertarian] If they refuse to get out, shouldn't they have to declare war the way we do?
[Sirotnikov] libertarian's right :)
[rdomarat] How many responses did you get to the Firaxis Beta Testing Team?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] chris: well, it is not overriding anything. it is making a decision, and the prefs are one of the factors it considers. it's highest priority, however, is feeding it's citizens, which is why it puts a high priority on 3+ food tiles
[ProvostHarrison] Hey, I've kicked them out of my territory before...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] over 400
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] hundreds
[Acooper] I have to aggre with Lib
[GodKing] lot of resume's
[rdomarat] I assume you haven't formed the Beta Testing Team yet because you didn't contact me right? :)
[ACS_MarkG] Are you done with choosing who's in the beta team?
[pitk] soren, a question, you have respectable expirience on this. Is it even remotely possible that once there will be AI that will match the human in every aspect? not to say the current one is bad, but you know what I mean :)
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Well we still have to do the swimsuit and talent competitions
[Dimorier_Maximus] So tell us, what did you do exactly to "Eliminate 'Despot Pop Rushing'"?
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] You can kick them out. try asking them to leave on back to back turns
[ProvostHarrison] I'm glad to see that the new patch is a lot more stable. With the previous patch I got a lot of crashes but they have gone now...
[m_m_x] hehe
[Guest123] When calculating military strength as component of Power does quantity or quality of units matter?
[CapTVK] A question to both Dan and Soren: "What's your view of the various open source versions like Freeciv, Civ-evo and CoC?"
[Schee_FR] Same question as Dimorier_Maximus...
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] I think they are great personally
[Anunikoba] Why were the Citizen and Improvements defense ratings raised so high? They are at 16 now.
[sparkit] do more than 2 automated workers clean up pollution now?
[Acooper] I played until late last night, first impresion of the patch is a thumbs up
[Libertarian] Javier: Sometimes they leave, and sometimes they don't. They never have to declare war when they stay.
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] They are designed for a much more narrowly-focused audience and can do things that we can't
[furtigan] Is there a timetable for the "big patch"
[GuestJon_Miller] 1Are planes still kept from eliminating units?
[ChrisShaffer] Question: Why did you choose to have the domestic advisor popup to notify of civil disorder after the city has gone into disorder, instead of the turn before?
[Libertarian] Sparkit: Yes, the 2 cap limit was eliminated.
[Acooper] How about planes and boats?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] pitk: the reason that AI's have a difficult time matching humans in games like Civ is that _the rules are not set at the beginning of the project_. If I was writing a chess AI, I have the benefit of knowing exactly what the game is. Civ 3's rules weren't finalized until very late in the project, which makes AI development very hard
[Javier_Sobrado_FIRAXIS1] Lib: if you ask them to leave turn after turn, you will get the option to tell them to leave or declare war.
[Schee_FR] I can't see what you write Guest08423
[ProvostHarrison] Yeah, it would be good that under overwhelming artillery barrage that a unit can be destroyed...
[Schee_FR] *GuestJon_Miller
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] JonMiller, at the moment, yes
[JayPiJay] suggestion for new building: Bomb Shelter (reduces risk of citizens from being killed by artillery)
[Libertarian] Javier: Yes, that should be the case. But unless 1.17 changed things, it isn't.
[Anunikoba] Why were the Citizen and Improvements defense ratings raised so high? They are at 16 now.
[Sirotnikov] q: who is really firaxis staff and who is not?
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Javy it's also based on how long they've been in your borders and so on, isn't it?
[GuestJon_Miller] If that could be edited (changed so that planes could destroy units) that would be very cool
[ACS_MarkG] What's the reasoning behind the inability to snik ships with your bombers?
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Jon, that's why I said "at the moment" ;)
[lightblue] lightblue10
[furtigan] ditto what MarkG asked
[ProvostHarrison] Yeah, artillery mode should be allowed to destroy units, but you could make that last point x amount harder to destroy than the other points...
[Schee_FR] too much people here...
[Libertarian] I thought they've explained that before. Game balance, isn't it?
[pitk] On the other hand soren, chess is much simpler game. much simpler. Meaning that both the human and computer have more freedom and less need and less ability to precalculate the most optimal path. adapting is the key. anyway I think your AI is very good. we ll see if it stays so for a yeas or two :)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] mark: planes can't sink ships for game balance. In other words, in order to control the seas, you must have at least a small navy. The different types of units are meant to complement each other.
[GuestJon_Miller] why the SOMBRERO Dan Magaha?
[Dan_Magaha_SOMBRERO] Why not!
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] pitk: also true
[rdomarat] Why wouldn't you want a Sombrero?
[ProvostHarrison] You obviously never saw the picture Jon.
[ACS_MarkG] Ok, one more: what was the problem with all units having zone control?
[Sirotnikov] hmmm... I tohught Dan formed his own SOMBRERO company
[GuestJon_Miller] perhaps not (or at least I do not recall)
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] mark: do you mean the old ZOC or the new ZOC?
[Sirotnikov] or ZOG? :spam:
[Acooper] Mark Cut and paste the answer for ships/bombers for the site. Maybe they'll quiet some people
[ACS_MarkG] ok acooper :)
[Guest123] When calculating Power, does it matter the quantity or quality of your military units?
[ACS_MarkG] soren, i mean civ2-style zoc
[GuestJon_Miller] What is the best size map to play 16 Civs on? (so that there are some small ones and other larger ones)
mark: we felt that civ1/2-style ZOCs were not fun or intuitive. They were were wargamy, which is not what we were aiming for. Preventing units from moving is not a good thing, in general


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