Civ3 1.21 Chat Friday, April 19, 2002: The Best Parts
2 Months and 4 days after the second, the third
civ3 patch was released and we were right here to share our experiences from the changes along
with several Firaxians
In red, the operator. In
blue, Firaxis team members. Many thanks to
Jeff Morris, Dan Magaha, Soren Johnson, Javier Sobrado and Mike Breitkreutz
[chiefpaco] what was the reasoning behind the compressed file save format?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Saved games were compressed because they were too large; they took up too much space.
[Daaraa] I use the LWC mod and there are a lot of added units. Why is that option not available any more?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Adding units was never supposed to be available. It was possible through the use of hacks and such. We are not quite ready to support it through the editor.
[ACS_MarkG] Jeff (continue the silly questions) do we have an announceable plan on what we can expect to see more from civ3 (from patches to expansion packs)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] You know the answer...as we're seeing with MOO3 there are a lot of dangers associated with being completely candid about software developm,enmt
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We're into talking about what we know we can deliver on
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Another thing
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We're just the developer. Civ is a francise worth millions to many corparations across the world. The development of new features for it is a big deal
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We need to look out for the viability of the property as well as the desires of the hardcore and casual fans
[ACS_MarkG] Jeff, any sales numbers?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] None we can talk about...but they're insane...
[Dan_Magaha_FIRAXIS] Maybe now would be a good time for a quick explanation of how the version numbering process goes during patches Jeff...
[ACS_MarkG] yeah and what's with the f thing? :D
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] a=alpha b=beta f=final
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Each patch is assigned a version number and submitted to test. If and when they get 'failed' then enxt version is built with a higher number. This is so fixes marked in the DB can be assigned to specific versions. F stands for final which means it's a version that could possibly be released
[GER-Jennifer] Did Infogrames force you to "fix the bug" that units can be added in the editor?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] No...it was caught in a general bug fix sweep
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] GER-Jennifer: No. It's just not ready for the editor yet.
[GER-Jennifer] why is it "not ready" it didn't crash the game, did it?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] GER_Jennifer: There are a number of hard-coded limits to art files that aren't readily apparent and they need to be removed.
[GER-Jennifer] Can't you remove the art-limits without "fixing the bug"?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] GER-Jennifer: we cannot officially support it as long as the limits are there.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Thus it can't be available in the editor.
...
[King_of_Camelot] Why is it taking you so long to remove the art limitations related to adding new units? With the old hacked editor there seemed to be no problem with adding new units, but you say there are limitations?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Chances are you'll be able to add units again once some of the fan tools get up to speed with v121. Official firaxis support of that feature however isn't ready for prime time
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] One example of a limitation that we removed was the fact that you couldn't have more than 24 resource icons. And there are numerous places in the code with similar issues.
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Well, to be fair civ2's scenario capabilities evolved over numerous products...Matching what civ2MPGE had at launch with Civ3 was beyond our capabilities
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] and resources
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] These things take time, especially with an engine that wasn't necessarily designed with them in mind...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We've spent substatial time and talent on the editing tools...I think we created a great editor for the game "WE" made. An editor to allow you guys to make your own games...well that stuff is different
[ACS_MarkG] Jeff, can you explain us the development model(i think you did in a previous chat but it's good to repeat). who payed your salaries before the release, who does now?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We get advances from publishers for specific products, which pay for all development. Upon ship we pay back those advances with royalties before we get a cut ourselves. The development we're doing now is funded by unannounced projects
[ACS_MarkG] so unless you plan an expansion you're paying for the patches yourself? :)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We need to be funded to do development on civ...simple as that
[SorenJohnson] to a certain extent, patches fund themselves in future sales...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] And there's always gold editions
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] You'd be amazed how many bonuses have been fueled by the Civil War Collection
[ACS_MarkG] do you also get $ for those 5$ versions of smac (no box, a manual and a cd)?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] The percentage goes up, but the amount goes down...after a certain price point, no
[ACS_MarkG] how do you judge all the latest "moopera"? :)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] It reminds me of SMAC....you get something by being so candid, but it has some built in risks. Firaxis doesn't have it's own forums for instance, which was directly related to SMAC experience. I wish them the best regardless..
[ACS_MarkG] But everyone remembers the initial smac forums with good memories... and the owo were unmoderated(huge difference)...
[ACS_MarkG] but mainly i'm talking about people geting laid off at this time of the production
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Well, pre-release, forums are always plesant. The issue is after the honeymoon and the reality of the game has to complete with the insubstantial 'dream' versino of the game...thats where the trouble starts...
[Immortal_Wombat] scripting?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Immortal_Wombat - I think you've missed my point about a scripting language. Scripting is not the same as a scripting language...
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] You don't need a scripting language to script events.
[King_of_Camelot] Why does it seem to be so hard to add a mini map to the editor?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] It's not that it in itself is difficult (and it's not trivial), it's that other development may need to get done immediately or is a predicesor task to something we want to do.
[notyoueither] Soren can you tell us how you may have juiced the AI with 1.21
[SorenJohnson_FIRAXIS] well, the biggest change is that the AI is more flexible in its use of units...
[notyoueither] Ohhh. Swarms of Infantry attacking?
[SorenJohnson_FIRAXIS] ...for example, the AI can now use infantry as its primary offensive unit if tanks or cavalry are unavailable (before it built longbowman.. oops!)
[SorenJohnson_FIRAXIS] something like that
[notyoueither] Heh. Good one.
[notyoueither] Thank you very much for lethal bombardment!
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] You guys suggested it.
[Mizaq] Hi! Currently on the CivFanatics Forums there are several people working on a Star Wars Mod. However, that mod could Foxxed at any time by LucasArts. Has there been any discussion with LucasArts about making a Star Wars turn based game along the lines of Civilization? ---Or would you not be allowed to leak even a hint of this project being discussed?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We're talking about that kind of mod stuff mizaq, but not with lucasarts...anything is possible
[SirPleb] Would you mind telling us what the new save format compression scheme is, so that authors of existing utilities can get them working again?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] SirPleb- We used the commercial version of the PKWare data compression library
[jimmyhealey] Do you had any of your headers to the compressed file, or is it 100% pkware???
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] 100%
[YuMMz] Firaxis: Have you improved the AI Draft rate, I cannot take their cities because I cannot even get ONE happy person if I do take them. I saw you mention something about this earlier but missed the answer
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] we have definetly improved the AI draft/hurry rate...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] We are happy with the current tech rate (although we always want feedback)... deity games are really off the chart as far as that is concerned, though.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] the main problem with them going into Communism was that they would hurry production too much, which we have toned down. Our Beta testers didn't think it was a problem in 1.21
[Spiffor] Mike_Breitkreuz_FIRAXIS : My question is about fixed starting positions : although the editor has many more features now than 6 months ago, this one is still not present. Why ? Is it not a priority, or is it especially difficult to implement ?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Spiffor- re: start locs: The biggest thing holding that back was getting the concept of the "player" into the editor, which you'll note is now something you can customize...
[ACS_MarkG] so you're starting to "get there" mike?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] we are always starting to "get there"
[ZeFalor] Firaxis: When will Anthrax be added to the game? It would be a wonderful thing to be able to 'thrax the other civilizations to death.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] zefalor: don't hold your breath
[ZeFalor] Awww, Soren, you must admit, it would be very fun.
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Anthrax? We wanted more of a Kenny G feel... Oh you weren't talking about the band?
[YuMMz] Firaxis: Any chance for a popup window to tell you that a city is going to go into disorder next turn?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] yummz: i believe the "manage moods" governor will take care of this a turn ahead for you now
[player1] Soren, how are bombard chances claculated when bombing cities?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] player1: i believe there is a 50% chance of targeting units, 25% chance of targeting buildings, and 25% chance for population
[theGreyFox] .Question:. Why was Pop-Rushing made so un-usable in 1.17? And why change back now?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] greyfox: well, it was the only dominant startegy that emerged, so we devalued it in 1.17, but we went too far, so we pulled it back a little less. no big conspiracy.
[Spiffor] Soren_Johnson_Firaxis : While you Programmers and QA are working on the patch, what are the artists doing ? Do they work for future development of Civ3, do they work for other Firaxis projects, did they lose their job at Firaxis after the release ?
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Spiffor- They're still here working on unannounced projects
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] spiffor: our artists are working on unannounced future projects.
[notyoueither] I can feel XP coming.
[|Sn00py] Dinosaurs playing golf!
[Guest81418] lol
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Golfasaurus
[ACS_MarkG] no, no, no, the XP will have a special dinos civ with all unique dino uunits!
[AmesJustin_yet_again] GolfZilla
[[m]ike] Are there any efforts at making the larger maps more playable? I have heard it is something in the culture routine that slows down turns on huge maps.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] mike: it is the pathfinding which slows down the larger maps...
[|Sn00py] I find it strange that patches seem to fix some things but screw up others? Are you really Microsoft in disguise?
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] snoopy: well, we didn't have a good patch-testing process before. We are much more confident about 1.21.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] the beta testers helped a great deal
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Yeah. Go beta team!
...
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] i really need to emphasize, though, that the bad reputation of the previous patches happened because we tried to fix too much, so new ideas have to be OUTSTANDING before we would consider putting them in the standard game at this point
[PapaLenin] This question has been asked dozens if times but when can we expect multi-player to be released
[ACS_MarkG] NO COMMENT!
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] Thanky you Mark
[ACS_MarkG] i'm starting to like this :D
[Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS] :)
[notyoueither] When are you moving the server Mark?
[ACS_MarkG] nye: no comment :D
[ACS_MarkG] we'll announce things when things are definite :D
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