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Deity
Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia - FUKCOV
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Dec 2000
time: 20:57
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Lets discuss where TBS gaming has gone in the period since the release of Civ4 (fall 2005, for those who've forgotten) to today, where it is now, and where its going.
One of our knowledgeble commentators has said that the only healthy franchises are Civ (including Colonization) and GalCiv. What happened to the fantasy TBS? Killed by the weakness of the genre and disappointment with HOMM5? Will Stardock's MOM successor revive it? Have TBS/RTS hybrids like the TW series, and nominally RTS games like the Paradox series eaten into the market?
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Deity
Dance Dance for the Revolution!
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Jan 1970
time: 20:57
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Presumably they paid for Civ4 also, and many enjoyed FFH1 and 2, so it's not like the interest isn't there.
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 19:57
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I keep meaning to get BtS and Colonization. Will the copies I can get off Steam work with my CD copies of Civ4 and Warlords?
JM
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Deity
Busy increasing the population of my country.
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Aug 2002
time: 20:57
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I think it will continue to be a niche market essentially. But that market will decline overtime as our ADD epidemic takes further hold of society.
I have to run and post elsewhere now..........
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Prince
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Feb 2006
time: 01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
I keep meaning to get BtS and Colonization. Will the copies I can get off Steam work with my CD copies of Civ4 and Warlords?
JM |
Probably not. As a rule of thumb anything you get of steam is not compatible with a retail boxed version or even patches for those retail release versions. But as I dont use steam someone else can probably give more exact detail for you.
..........................
In terms of LotM original post, well the state of the tbs circa 2008 is ok, but as has been said only a few well known examples get much media interest. Outside of AAA releases tbs seems to be around still.
Good, or even great tbs games are almost a thing of the past(apart from Civ+GalCiv of course), mostly because any new tbs actualy has to be pretty damn good.
The FPS market is much easier to please, all you need is a new skin(fancy graphics) and people will happily pay to play.
The tbs is a more complex creature and to really stand a chance requires an excellent effort from the developer and full and understanding support from the publisher.
Sadly most publishers today just dont get what a tbs is about and that makes it nearly impossible for a developer to beat or better what we had achieved in the genre 5,6, maybe even 10 years ago.
As an example I still play Xcom as it still the best in its class, Age of Wonders has already been mentioned, CTP, Homm3+4, SMAC, GalCiv and Civ(IV currently).
Of these only Civ and GalCiv are getting the right kind of updates and treatment, and any new tbs has atleast to compete with these which is not easy(but not impossible either imho).
While the games industry is all consolecentric the tbs will sit on the backburner as most console gamers prefer action titles(generalisation, but true, and in part down to the way the player can use the hardware).
Although the success of the Fire Emblem and Advance War games on the GBA/DS show that maybe there is an appetite even here?
Once people realise we now have a pretty big demographic of +30's playing games then we will probably see more thoughtful games.......probably 
Strategic RTS games could well have taken the place of many tbs games. Publishers are much happier if you have a 3D engine and games like Total War certainly are big sellers. I certainly get lots of enjoyment from these and Paradox titles, but they dont quite cure my tbs cravings completely, and never will.
TBS will always be a niche market, it always was before, but I doubt it will ever completely die out - two many good games in the genre have been made in the past so people will always be looking to try to copy those. We just need to be patient 
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Emperor
As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
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Jun 2002
time: 18:57
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Are we talking purely for PC here?
Final Fantasy recently had a Tactics version on the DS (not entirely sure if it was new or port), and Advance Wars a little while before that.
I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the thing, but my son has recently bought those two TBS's on the DS. Might be others as well there, or even on the consoles.
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Prince
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Feb 2006
time: 01:57
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Stardock is doing the not MoM2 thing still i think:
http://www.masterofmagic2.com/
but I cant find upto date news about it? I hope it will still be a TBS, but it could be a pausable rts i suppose?
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Deity
Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia - FUKCOV
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Dec 2000
time: 20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
The point was the popularity of those mods shows the enthusiasm is still there for the subgenre, were a good standalone game to be released. |
Yes, I understand that, and my point was, that the Q-demanded when the marginal cost to the consumer is the time to dl the mod and play the games, is not necessarily an indicator of the Q-demanded when there is a non-zero monetary price.
If and when Stardock releases its game, we shall see.
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Deity
Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia - FUKCOV
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Dec 2000
time: 20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Are we talking purely for PC here?
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While I mainly had PC in mind, I didn't intend to rule out consoles, as long as we can keep this from degenerating into a platform war.
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Deity
Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia - FUKCOV
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Dec 2000
time: 20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
Presumably they paid for Civ4 also, and many enjoyed FFH1 and 2, so it's not like the interest isn't there. |
But in buying Civ4 they were buy a game in a historical setting, not a fantasy setting. Im questioning if the market is deep enough to support games beyond the Civ and Gal civ franchises, esp a fantasy game, so unless folks specifically bought Civ4 for Fall from Heaven, Im not sure theres evidence they will pay for a standalone fantasy TBS. At least not in the numbers to make it viable to a publisher.
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Well, I certainly would purchase a non-3D Fantasy tbs game in the genre.
Then again, I am not the average consumer.
---
Anyone have an idea of what the Ideal Fantasy-TBS would look like?
I see a few games... but can't quite put a finger on their themes since most were released before I developed an interest in the genre:
* Heroes of Might and Magic [Tactical] (Perhaps the best Fantasy TBS)
* Warlords Series (Never played)
* Age of Wonders (Never played)
* Master of Magic (Never played)
* Battle of Wesnoth [Tactical Wargame] (Free online download)
* Lords of Magic (buggy as heck)
* Disciples
Can you think of any others?
Last edited by DarkCloud on 12-10-2008 at 02:00
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 19:57
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The RTS genre is similar, there have been numerous fantasy RTS.
JM
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Prince
UK
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Apr 2002
time: 01:57
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quote:
The problem is the last good fantasy TBS was Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic |
Still playing this. Can't compete the last scenario. Must have restarted at least a dozen times and particularly frustrating as the difficulty rating is several times harder than any of the earlier scenarios.
You could add Disciples to the list which has gone through several editions.
Turn based is still out there - Silent Storm and all the spins offs, UFO series. I think more recently there was Fantasy Wars - read a preview somewhere but seemed to sink without trace.
There's also people like Matrix making games. Not sure its a major commercial theme though. I think TBS is probably special interest on the PC.
Interesting though to see a few success on the DS and PSP which i wouldn't have expected.
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Emperor
As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
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Jun 2002
time: 18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
Well, I certainly would purchase a non-3D Fantasy tbs game in the genre.
Then again, I am not the average consumer.
---
Anyone have an idea of what the Ideal Fantasy-TBS would look like?
I see a few games... but can't quite put a finger on their themes since most were released before I developed an interest in the genre:
* Heroes of Might and Magic [Tactical] (Perhaps the best Fantasy TBS)
* Warlords Series (Never played)
* Age of Wonders (Never played)
* Master of Magic (Never played)
* Battle of Wesnoth [Tactical Wargame] (Free online download)
* Lords of Magic (buggy as heck)
* Disciples
Can you think of any others? |
Dominions is also quite good if you take the time to learn it. It has a STEEP learning curve and suffers from a lack of polish.
If someone were to take it's model, focus on one of the ages, and really tighten up the interface, controls, and feedback (ESPECIALLY what's going on in the battles, that takes some time to figure out, why did I lose there but win there?), it would make a damn good game.
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 19:57
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Actually, it sucks.
I played through a couple of games, and then was bored.
JM
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Emperor
As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
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Jun 2002
time: 18:57
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It might in SP. I'll admit to not playing that much at all so I can't comment whether the AI is so horrid as to make it boring. As a PBEM, though, it's been quite interesting.
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LDiCesare
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King
Ashes
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Jan 2001
time: 01:57
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Dominions III is the richest and best game I've played for ages.
It's the best multiplayer game that I know, by far.
Its interface is poor, it's insanely complex, but it's also insanely rich. It's got tons of spells, nations, creatures, and most importantly strategies.
Admittedly, the ai is poor, but beating several mighty AI's on a crowded map is a challenge. Beating LA Ermor on a big map is a challenge. There are also mods (like better or no independants) that help the ai not buy crappy units and makes it better. And in MP, the game rocks.
JonMiller, give a try to an MP game, there are many on the shrapnel forums, including blitz games you can arrange on an irc channel. Play one such mp game, get destroyed and then you'll start playing sp in order to find out how to beat worthy opponents, to try nations whose flavour is different from the ones you tried, etc.
Dominions III rocks.
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Emperor
As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
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Jun 2002
time: 18:57
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Yeah, I should have said Dominions III.
It replaced CivIV as my preferred PBEM game a while ago.
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 19:57
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MP might be fun. I am suspicious that the reason the SP sucks is because the AI can't handle the complexity.
JM
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