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Emperor
Maryland
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Nov 2000
time: 18:57
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Can someone seriously explain to me how McCain's idea of taxing our health care benefits as income would make it more affordable for people?
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Emperor
Xrr ZRRRRRRR!!
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Feb 2002
time: 02:57
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Yes, you didn't get the point an old man came up with, what does that say about you? MrFun, let it go. This question of yours is not interesting and not worthy of an answer. You will probably use it to spin this thread into a heated hate discussion about religion, values and racism. Stop. Please, we ask you to stop before it gets out of hand.
I for one will contribute to the world by playing some Call of Duty 4 more, and go work 3 hours late because of that.
Ta-ta.
ps. leave McCain alone.
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Emperor
Maryland
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Nov 2000
time: 18:57
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Well I don't understand how you make health care more affordable by taxing people's health benefits as income.
I want to know how that works.
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Emperor
Xrr ZRRRRRRR!!
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Feb 2002
time: 02:57
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I don't get it either. They say the world hates America, yet here we are, two foreigners, wondering why MrFun hates America so much.
I just want to know how that works.
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Emperor
Xrr ZRRRRRRR!!
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Feb 2002
time: 02:57
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Kid, Credit is good. The word itself feels good, sounds good and means good. Credit means you can afford it even if you don't. Now what is better than affording something you can't afford? Nothing! It's like having sex with a chick who won't put out. Do you hate sex Kid?
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Credit = Debt
And debt does not sound good
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Settler
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Sep 2004
time: 00:57
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Here's the argument:
http://www.aei.org/publications/fil.../pub_detail.asp
"The current tax exemption has helped create a health-care system dominated by low-co-payment, employer-sponsored health plans. The tax exemption is the principle reason that five out of every six health-care dollars are spent by someone other than the person receiving the care. Quite naturally, this system has evolved into one that is excessively costly and wasteful."
The conclusion from this interpretation is that the insured buy wasteful medical care because they don't pay the full price. This extra demand for medical care pushes up the price but doesn't improve health outcomes much.
It does sound contradictory though. Pay more in taxes and you'll be better off... not a usual conservative statement. I find it hard to believe that if the tax system can be so distortionary in the medical market, why hasn't it distorted other markets? However, I think the diagnosis of the medical market being distorted by 3rd party payment makes sense though. Something like 80 or 90% of medical payments are made by 3rd parties(priv insurance or government). Health insurance covers activities that are predictable and not so costly like medical checkups and new eye glasses, as well as rare and financially catastrophic events.
Here's an academic working paper about it: http://papers.nber.org/papers/w9567
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Emperor
Maryland
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Nov 2000
time: 18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ell_man
Here's the argument:
http://www.aei.org/publications/fil.../pub_detail.asp
"The current tax exemption has helped create a health-care system dominated by low-co-payment, employer-sponsored health plans. The tax exemption is the principle reason that five out of every six health-care dollars are spent by someone other than the person receiving the care. Quite naturally, this system has evolved into one that is excessively costly and wasteful."
The conclusion from this interpretation is that the insured buy wasteful medical care because they don't pay the full price. This extra demand for medical care pushes up the price but doesn't improve health outcomes much.
It does sound contradictory though. Pay more in taxes and you'll be better off... not a usual conservative statement. I find it hard to believe that if the tax system can be so distortionary in the medical market, why hasn't it distorted other markets? However, I think the diagnosis of the medical market being distorted by 3rd party payment makes sense though. Something like 80 or 90% of medical payments are made by 3rd parties(priv insurance or government). Health insurance covers activities that are predictable and not so costly like medical checkups and new eye glasses, as well as rare and financially catastrophic events.
Here's an academic working paper about it: http://papers.nber.org/papers/w9567 |
Thanks for the post.
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Warlord
Boulder, CO
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Jul 2000
time: 17:57
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quote:
"The current tax exemption has helped create a health-care system dominated by low-co-payment, employer-sponsored health plans. The tax exemption is the principle reason that five out of every six health-care dollars are spent by someone other than the person receiving the care. Quite naturally, this system has evolved into one that is excessively costly and wasteful." |
So, let me see if I understand this: People go get unneccesary healthcare because they're not paying for it, which drives up the cost? That's actually ridiciulous.
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Moderator
of Candle'Bre
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Apr 1999
time: 00:57
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Kirnwaffen,
You have the gist of it.
And while there may be SOME truth to the thinking, I'd imagine there's a whole lot of "low hanging fruit" we could harvest to bring down medical costs without even paying this one any mind at all.
-=Vel=-
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Deity
Lurking occasionally
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Mar 2003
time: 16:57
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Another point is that the health insurance market is very uncompetitive. Even if you broke up the industry that's not going to make the healthcare industry more competitive, which is where most of the costs are.
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Settler
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Sep 2004
time: 00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
But the argument relies on the assumption that people are generally getting too much health care, and instead they should have low deductible, high co-pay health care. Which actually deters people from getting stuff like preventative care, which drastically lowers costs long-term. In other words, McCain believes what an individual considers rational (I'm not going to get sick, so I'll get crappy insurance + a 42" tv) is necessarily beneficial to society.
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I think this is the crux of the difference between the 2 points of view. I think people won't systematically underestimate or overestimate the probabilities, while you think that people will underestimate probabilities . The low deductible, high co-pay health care is actually a feature, not a bug, because it pushes people to get more health care(and preventative care) when they otherwise wouldn't. Whereas my interpretation says that people buying too much health care is the problem. People are not getting too little preventative care, they're getting too much.
Obviously they can't both be right.
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Deity
Lurking occasionally
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Mar 2003
time: 16:57
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The problem isn't with the consumer. It's with the insurance companies. The insurance companies are the ones who add on the costs by adding benefits. It's technology which is driving this.
So in a way there is too much health care, but it's not preventative care that there is too much of. McCain seems to think that it is.
IMO the only solution is national health care, because that's the only way to control the cost driver, implementation of technology into the system.
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 18:57
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Considering most health problems in the US at least could be prevented, I think that your interpretation is wrong.
JM
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Emperor
Charleston, SC No more ships! A lot more drinking!
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Dec 2001
time: 00:57
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You do realize you just asked him what basis he believed that and then provided no such creditable basis yourself right?
The article makes perfect sense, and nobody has yet to claim such a change would be the end all be all of health care reform.
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 18:57
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No one I know gets too much preventative care. Most get far too little.
JM
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Warlord
Boulder, CO
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Jul 2000
time: 17:57
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I think the real root of the problem is that doctors have competing interests. On the one hand, they want to provide the best care possible. On the other, their practice has to survive economically. Reimbursement right now is based largely on procedures, so what you get is the most profitable, relevant procedure that a doctor can justify. So, if you want to lower healthcare costs, you have to do something about the drivers.
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Deity
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May 1999
time: 18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DirtyMartini
this is entirely true -- my health plan used to have no copay for ER visits. Guess what? the ER was overutilized. Guess what? an ER visit for a given problem is much more expensive for the system than a normal office visit for the same problem. this is but one example. |
Given that a lot of people I know don't have a normal doctor (Because they don't have insurance), they don't have any choice other than wait until it becomes ER worthy. Because the ER can't turn them away.
This is a much more likely reason for ER to be so expensive.
JM
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Warlord
Boulder, CO
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Jul 2000
time: 17:57
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quote:
this is entirely true -- my health plan used to have no copay for ER visits. Guess what? the ER was overutilized. Guess what? an ER visit for a given problem is much more expensive for the system than a normal office visit for the same problem. this is but one example. |
That's a terrible example. Most people seek to avoid the ER because of the sheer inconvenience of it. Plus, it ignores the fact that the reason the ER is actually overutilized is because they cannot deny you care if you can't pay. It also ignores the fact that ER visits are reduced (right along with costs) when preventative care is provided and utilized.
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Deity
Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Feb 1999
time: 16:57
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What no one's pointed out yet is that McCain's proposal would effectively do away with group insurance, which is the most efficient way to buy insurance.
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All times are GMT. The time now is 00:57.
Apolyton Time is 19:57. |
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What about human nature makes you believe that we underestimate long term costs. Have you been paying attention at all to the financial markets?
