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curtsibling
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Moderator
and Invisible Lizard
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May 2002
time: 21:44
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Not the Eurovision Song Contest! (thankfully)
But it is a contest between various empires in a quick and enjoyable WW2 ToT scenario I put together a month or two ago! And before
the groan at 'yet another' 2nd World War project goes up, I should say that the emphasis this time is on fun, with faster turns, the
same maniac AI from 'Ostfront' and a new element for me...Coloured units! Yep - Thanks to resident genii, fairline and Merc, Eurasian
Wars boasts civ colour-coded generic units...No more wondering what enemy owned that artillery that just killed your tank stack! 
* Map covers territory from Spain across the world to Alaska...
* Play as Italian, German, Japanese, Chinese, Soviet, and Allied civs. Neutrals are there to be victimised by bullying warlike civs...
* No 'defendable' terrain this time, making sure that the unit count does not go through the roof, and encourages combined unit useage!
* Addictive CIV2 warmongering...I spent many 5am sessions on EW!
Basically an advanced prototype of the scenario, I'm looking for people to test it out and give feedback before I do a final edit.
Help yourselves! 
Scenario!
http://sleague.apolyton.net/images/...s_Scenario1.zip
Sounds!
http://sleague.apolyton.net/images/...Wars_Sound1.zip
Enjoy!
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AGRICOLA
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King
Canadian bush & Florida
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Feb 2003
time: 16:44
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I played 18 turns as Germany/Deity before deciding that I knew enough about the scen for a few comments.
UNIT MOVEMENT vs DISTANCE
The scenario plays reasonably well but becomes a decided bore when the Germans reach India and push east of Stalingrad. Most reinforcements are built in Britain and western Europe. Air units need 3-5 turns to reach the front and, without resorting to airlifts, ground units need at least that number of turns to move along crooked roads to get to where they are needed. The farther east the Germans advance, the worse the problem becomes. The lack of RR's is not a major problem in your various Dictator scens because continental areas are relatively small, few roads are really crooked and sea transport can be used extensively. In this scen, the continental areas and distances are huge and create major problems for moving ground units.
I think that RR's are needed to keep the game moving without players having to devote an inordinate amount of time to shuffling units to the front, moving at 8 squares per turn. The best solution might be to start the scen with no RR's but either spawn enough engineers to build RR's or make the engineers buildable but expensive . . . . . . 100 - 150 shields.
I got rid of workers as useless units (Mv=1) which cannot keep up with other units. Starting the scen with 4 engineers and spawning 1.5 engineers/turn gives players the choice of using them to support offensives by building fortresses and roads or using some of them to slowly build a straight Amsterdam - Vladivostok or Amsterdam - New Delhi RR. The spawning can stop once the total reaches 30 - 35 engineers, a number I consider adequate for reasonable play.
The above is equally true for all playable civs.
An alternative to the above might be to have transporter sites near selected major cities and a second map that has connecting RR's. Players would have to be warned that they must have units blocking transporters within their territories. I suppose that there could be immobile undisbandable garrison units on transporter sites at the start of the scen.
CIV COLORS ON UNITS
IMHO, this is a tossup. It helps a bit but is not a huge advantage because the units of the various civs do not get intermixed to a significant extent in this scen.
Italian tanks do not really need flags for ID. Their color is highly distinctive.
The German Panther should also have no flag because the Italians can also build it (should they be able to build them?).
I have no idea how the masks for civ colors work but could one possibly use them to put the proper civ color in health bars? I know that the colored civ ID square on a health bar can be made to appear white on the game map by changing the magenta square to white in UNITS.
UNIT BALANCE
This scen is definitely pure heaven for offensively-minded players. Assault guns, Nashorns and Jagdpanthers have A/D=15/3 or better and can ignore city walls. They are almost automatic when it comes to destroying enemy units, both in cities and in the open. At the point where I terminated play, the German OOB had 68 assault guns and 85 Nashorns yet only 1 assault gun had been lost in conquering half the map.
Of course, the AI has equally good assault guns so the problem is one of how to keep them from attacking one's own cities. Once that little problem is solved, the scen is straightforward.
Aside from workers, the only other unit whose value I question is the V2 because I see no reason why anyone would build it. 60 shields is a lot to pay for a 1-shot missile unless it does more damage than it costs. I tested V2's against battleships and found that two vet V2's cannot sink a BB whereas two 60 shield vet subs are almost certain to send it to the bottom.
MISCELLANY
There is no option to pillage fortresses. However, ordering a unit to pillage a RR pillages a fortress. This should be easy to correct.
Suggest putting Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad on river or hill terrain.
IMHO, there is too much dark gray and dark brown in the colors of cities, industry, urban squares and airfields. I got tired of trying to distinguish the various dark blobs and changed the airfield icon to the vanilla version but did add a yellow windsock for an unoccupied field and a red one when units are present.
Pine (resource) on tundra terrain does not grow; it is a southern species. 10 cm high creeping Arctic birch, small willows and stunted spruce in hollows are about the best that one can do. There ain't no wood except the driftwood along the banks of rivers flowing north from the taiga. Suggest using reindeer as resource.
 Attachment: eaw.jpg
This has been downloaded 277 time(s).
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curtsibling
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Moderator
and Invisible Lizard
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May 2002
time: 21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I played 18 turns as Germany/Deity before deciding that I knew enough about the scen for a few comments. |
Your feedback is always welcome, mate!
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
UNIT MOVEMENT vs DISTANCE
The scenario plays reasonably well but becomes a decided bore when the Germans reach India and push east of Stalingrad. Most reinforcements are built in Britain and western Europe. Air units need 3-5 turns to reach the front and, without resorting to airlifts, ground units need at least that number of turns to move along crooked roads to get to where they are needed. The farther east the Germans advance, the worse the problem becomes. The lack of RR's is not a major problem in your various Dictator scens because continental areas are relatively small, few roads are really crooked and sea transport can be used extensively. In this scen, the continental areas and distances are huge and create major problems for moving ground units. |
Hey! No-one said that world conquest would be a picnic!
Your concerns about RRs have got me thinking, so I will look at ways to introduce
them in a way that does not break the balance and make things too easy...
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I think that RR's are needed to keep the game moving without players having to devote an inordinate amount of time to shuffling units to the front, moving at 8 squares per turn. The best solution might be to start the scen with no RR's but either spawn enough engineers to build RR's or make the engineers buildable but expensive . . . . . . 100 - 150 shields. |
Buildable engineers are a problem, as the AI switches to building nothing else.
The whole scenario suffers as the civs go from fighting to farming...! Not good!
That is why I opted for events-spawned worker/engineer units. Making RRs buildable
would not be hugely trick at this stage, but it is coming up with a tech that would
explain the new ability...I think a new tech like 'Logistical Chains' could cover it.
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I got rid of workers as useless units (Mv=1) which cannot keep up with other units. Starting the scen with 4 engineers and spawning 1.5 engineers/turn gives players the choice of using them to support offensives by building fortresses and roads or using some of them to slowly build a straight Amsterdam - Vladivostok or Amsterdam - New Delhi RR. The spawning can stop once the total reaches 30 - 35 engineers, a number I consider adequate for reasonable play. |
Workers can be added to cities up to size 40, so I hope you are not just disbanding them!
I always find RRs in civ2 unrealistic and silly...How can a unit go from Paris to Bejing in a month?
I think moving all those units represents the straining logistical lines of a mass army movement,
which should be hard to do. But I guess it should be annoying to play...So a solution must be found.
I'll have a think about your suggestions...But I am not really sold on RRs to be honest.
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
An alternative to the above might be to have transporter sites near selected major cities and a second map that has connecting RR's. Players would have to be warned that they must have units blocking transporters within their territories. I suppose that there could be immobile undisbandable garrison units on transporter sites at the start of the scen. |
At this stage, implementing all that would be too tough. Means I would have to sacrifice a unit,
leading to tweaks on the unit placement, and too much hassle. Any changes would have to be made
using the RRs at this stage.
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
CIV COLORS ON UNITS
IMHO, this is a tossup. It helps a bit but is not a huge advantage because the units of the various civs do not get intermixed to a significant extent in this scen. |
It was done at the request of playtesters who found it hard to work out at a glance what unit belonged to who.
Also just looks cool! Katyushas look great with their new red wheel trim!
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Italian tanks do not really need flags for ID. Their color is highly distinctive.
The German Panther should also have no flag because the Italians can also build it (should they be able to build them?). |
The Italians should not be able to build panthers...I will fix that.
National flags are retained out of a sense of visual completeness.
I think all unique units should have their civ-flag. Just looks right.
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I have no idea how the masks for civ colors work but could one possibly use them to put the proper civ color in health bars? I know that the colored civ ID square on a health bar can be made to appear white on the game map by changing the magenta square to white in UNITS. |
The masks seem to create a perma-state that over-rides all other changes to the units
file, unless an new mask is created. Do you find it hard to spot units on the map?
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
UNIT BALANCE
This scen is definitely pure heaven for offensively-minded players. Assault guns, Nashorns and Jagdpanthers have A/D=15/3 or better and can ignore city walls. They are almost automatic when it comes to destroying enemy units, both in cities and in the open. At the point where I terminated play, the German OOB had 68 assault guns and 85 Nashorns yet only 1 assault gun had been lost in conquering half the map.
Of course, the AI has equally good assault guns so the problem is one of how to keep them from attacking one's own cities. Once that little problem is solved, the scen is straightforward. |
I wanted to give the player a unit to rely on, and that seemed to work...
Using armour or AA to protect the SP guns is essential, as they are not strong.
Although the JSU-152 is usually able to protect itself!
I have lost many a Do-335 to those beasts...!
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Aside from workers, the only other unit whose value I question is the V2 because I see no reason why anyone would build it. 60 shields is a lot to pay for a 1-shot missile unless it does more damage than it costs. I tested V2's against battleships and found that two vet V2's cannot sink a BB whereas two 60 shield vet subs are almost certain to send it to the bottom. |
It's tricky making suitable stats for this primitive missile unit.
Should it be cheaper or more destructive, do you think?
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
MISCELLANY
There is no option to pillage fortresses. However, ordering a unit to pillage a RR pillages a fortress. This should be easy to correct. |
Interesting....I will look into that!
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Suggest putting Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad on river or hill terrain. |
Is that an offer to hex these city tiles I hear?
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
IMHO, there is too much dark gray and dark brown in the colors of cities, industry, urban squares and airfields. I got tired of trying to distinguish the various dark blobs and changed the airfield icon to the vanilla version but did add a yellow windsock for an unoccupied field and a red one when units are present. |
Well, that is an aesthetic issue, eye of the beholder, etc.
Perhaps you need a new HUD?
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Pine (resource) on tundra terrain does not grow; it is a southern species. 10 cm high creeping Arctic birch, small willows and stunted spruce in hollows are about the best that one can do. There ain't no wood except the driftwood along the banks of rivers flowing north from the taiga. Suggest using reindeer as resource. |
Noted! I will find something else for the tundra terrain.
The object was really just eye-candy for these useless tiles.
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curtsibling
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Moderator
and Invisible Lizard
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May 2002
time: 21:44
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As per your adive, I have added a logistics tech that is available after 'Mass Production',
it will give all the mobility needed, and also add some tasty added trade arrows to tiles!
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA Definitely. If you want, I can also fix the first turn money bug at no extra charge. In Jan 1941 the bug generated 7000 gold (Riga & Istanbul) for the nasty Nazis. |
Sounds top class!
Would you require the SCN file or SAV?
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA No, I altered rules and events to eliminate workers from the scen. I could see no reason why they should be so slow moving (Mv=1). After all, a mob with only picks and shovels over their shoulders should be able to move as fast as infantry loaded down with weapons and ammo. |
Well, I might keep them around as they are free and can be used to boost population or
rush a terrain project...I'll leave it up to the player what he does with these guys!
quote:
Originally posted by AGRICOLA No opinion on this one beyond the fact that I can see no role for V2's in the scen. In view of their primitive guidance system, using them against anything but cities seems to be quite a stretch of imagination. Generally, I do not to use one-shot units unless they are clearly cost effective. I recently played WORLD WAR II- THE PACIFIC THEATER by Harlan Thompson. It has a a little Kamikaze unit (20 shields) which turned out to be the cheapest way for the Japanese to destroy the B-17's (120 shields) that only rarely could be shot down by a single Zero (60 shields). |
Perhaps make the V2 into a Kamikaze unit for the Japanese? That would give them an extra
unit, and something that might help them keep the balance in the late war game against
the mightier Soviet and Allied units...Will give this some serious thought!
All I need is a unit...!
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Cyrion
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King
Caught somewhere in time
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Jan 2002
time: 22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by curtsibling
I'll look into that, I have noticed it too...!
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Attachment: 