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The Priest
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Warlord
Apr 2006
time: 18:44
25-08-2008 10:13 | www
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#1 | report |
Barbarians rule? Remove this text


I thought I would try out a fun experiment.

Huge pangea map, but with only me and two other civs, with raging barbarians. This will clearly lead to serious barbarian empires, there is no way that the three civs could get even half the terrain under control in unti the very end game. But will the barbarians remain a real threat? Can they launch invasions?

The only change I thought I needed to make is to ban the great wall. Otherwise, I am planning on going with fairly normal settings.

Anyone want to guess how it will work out? What civ should I play? Anyone tried something similar?

Blaupanzer

King
Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 13:44
25-08-2008 14:38
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#2 | report |
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The higher the level you play, the more rapidly the barbs will found cities and the more defenders they will have per city. Up to Prince, it's two defenders; at monarch it's three; not sure if it goes to 4 other than at deity. Also, the number of barbs generated based on unclaimed, unseen tiles goes up on each rise. So your challege is probably great at Monarch, where the AI civs will start with archery and the barbs will put up a relatively stiff defense. However, if you play with reasonable conservatism, you will be able to build a pretty big empire with all the barb cities you conquer. They won't shift units from city to city like the AI. That is, you can feast on their cities if you can get and defend copper and horses in the early going.

The Priest
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Warlord
Apr 2006
time: 18:44
25-08-2008 14:43 | www
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#3 | report |
Put an end to popups!


Lets hope.

The first good and bad news from just the first millenium.

The good news: goodie huts seem to be producing hugely more gold than normal. I'm playing at my normal level (emperor) so it can't be that. There must be some factoring in of something to do with numbers of civs, number of huts or something, or else i have been very lucky.

The bad news: it looks like there is a mechanism for deciding on the number of strategic resources (horse, copper etc.) in relation to the number of civs (e.g. one per civ). With only 3 civs, these are extremely rare, which is going to mean keeping the barbarians off is going to be even harder. Time to swap to a civ with an early UU which doesn't need a resource!

jbp26
BtS Tri-League
Reigning Tri-League Champion
Philadelphia
Aug 2004
time: 18:44
25-08-2008 20:07
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#4 | report |
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this sounds like an extremely interesting scenario. just reaching another civ for trade options will be quite challenging, not to mention actually establishing trade routes. reduced resources is a good thing, theyre far too abundant as is.

rah
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerRise of Nations MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV: Multiplayer
Co-Owner/ Administrator (Reasonable One)
Lord of the Ferrets
Nov 1999
time: 12:44
25-08-2008 20:10
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#5 | report |
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life


Or if the barbs take out the other two civs, it might kill the fun of it. But at least you'd get an early victory.

Blaupanzer

King
Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 13:44
25-08-2008 20:33
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#6 | report |
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win


Would be bizarre to have an announcement to the effect: "Ding, dong, Japan is dead. You have won the game," before 1000 BC.

The Priest
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Warlord
Apr 2006
time: 18:44
25-08-2008 21:48 | www
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#7 | report |
Full PM-box? Change here!


Its a nightmare - you have never seen so many barbarians! This is going to be lots of fun.

Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
Henderson, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 10:44
25-08-2008 23:51
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#8 | report |
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)


quote:
Originally posted by The Priest
Its a nightmare - you have never seen so many barbarians! This is going to be lots of fun.

Screenshots! Where are the screenshots!

AAHZ
PolyCast Team
Emperor
ForumWarz
Feb 2000
time: 13:44
26-08-2008 02:52
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#9 | report |
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this is a fantastic idea will do myself later

Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
Henderson, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 10:44
26-08-2008 03:19
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#10 | report |
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)


Did you know that barbs conduct research? They do it as if they were playing at CHIEFTAiN level (per BARBARIAN_HANDICAP in GlobalDefines.xml).

If they could build libraries, etc. ....
They might beat you to AC.

Diadem
BtS Tri-League
Prince
Netherlands
Nov 2005
time: 19:44
26-08-2008 04:07
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#11 | report |
Remove this text


There is this AWESOME scenario for vanilla civ called "Rome against the Barbarians".

It's a deity level game on raging barbarians, with a few twists.

Isabella and another religious nutcake have been locked away in a corner of the map, made unreachable by an impassible barrier of mountains. You can't interact with them in any way during the entire game, but they will grab all religions.

Ghandi and another quite pacifistic civ share a continent somewhere in another corner. You'll eventually meet them, but it'll take time. And they won't be a threat, since they are quite pacifistic. Only time and conquest victory are avaible, so they won't UN or spacerace win either. They will probably grab all wonders though.

About 3/4 of the map is one single huge continent, with only you on it. And barbarians. Lots and lots of barbarians.

The goal of the map is to survive. And trust me, that is quite hard.

Awesome game. Just awesome.

AAHZ
PolyCast Team
Emperor
ForumWarz
Feb 2000
time: 13:44
26-08-2008 04:59
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#12 | report |
Increase Your PM Length


the Great Wall is the only way to make this type of game winnable

MoonWolf
Prince
Oct 2002
time: 19:44
26-08-2008 07:20
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#13 | report |
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Could be a mod. No Great Wall but you'll get XP and Great General points as normal.

jbp26
BtS Tri-League
Reigning Tri-League Champion
Philadelphia
Aug 2004
time: 18:44
26-08-2008 13:17
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#14 | report |
Increase Your PM Length


quote:
Originally posted by Diadem
There is this AWESOME scenario for vanilla civ called "Rome against the Barbarians".


was this a scenario? i could have sworn it was a realms beyond game.

jbp26
BtS Tri-League
Reigning Tri-League Champion
Philadelphia
Aug 2004
time: 18:44
26-08-2008 13:26
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#15 | report |
Enter the AD-FREE zone


quote:
Originally posted by AAHZ
the Great Wall is the only way to make this type of game winnable


getting the great wall would defeat the purpose of this type of game. if anything, you should use world builder and make the gw inaccessible.

Diadem
BtS Tri-League
Prince
Netherlands
Nov 2005
time: 19:44
26-08-2008 15:31
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#16 | report |
Inflate your Upload Space


Putting down several deity AIs with good starting locations goes a long way towards making the great wall unreachable Anyway if you want to play a game like this, you shouldn't build the great wall anyway. Modding it out would be best I guess.



quote:
Originally posted by jbp26

was this a scenario? i could have sworn it was a realms beyond game.


I think it was just a savegame. But it's so long ago, I don't quite remember. It was for vanilla civ though, I do know that. Which is a shamem playing such a game with great generals etc would be awesome. Anyway it could have been a scenario, there may have been some custom rulemods, I don't know.

I do know it was awesome. And HARD.

snoopy369
PtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III PBEMCivilization III Democracy GameIron CiversApolyton UniversityCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG VoxC4DG The HordeC4DG Gathering Storm
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Technical Assistant
Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 12:44
26-08-2008 15:46
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#17 | report |
Increase the size of your Attachments


Technically 'scenario' simply means a game that is set up ahead of time, it does not require any mods at all... so as long as it was modified ahead of time in any way (such as in worldbuilder setting up the map) it is a 'scenario'.

Diadem
BtS Tri-League
Prince
Netherlands
Nov 2005
time: 19:44
26-08-2008 15:52
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#18 | report |
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Then it most definitely was a scenario

The Priest
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Warlord
Apr 2006
time: 18:44
27-08-2008 16:32 | www
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#19 | report |
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quote:
Could be a mod. No Great Wall but you'll get XP and Great General points as normal.


Ah yes that is a good idea. For this game I just went into the XML and made the great wall go obsolete with Masonry, an easy change to make it unbuildable. (It wouldn't have worked to just not build it, because if other civs built it, it woudl give them too much of an advantage over me.)

What I didn't think of doing was changing it to allow XP and GG points. I don't know how to do that, though i guess a quick search of XML would give it. I think that would be fair, since barbs are the main enemies.

jbp26
BtS Tri-League
Reigning Tri-League Champion
Philadelphia
Aug 2004
time: 18:44
27-08-2008 16:35
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#20 | report |
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quote:
Originally posted by The Priest


Ah yes that is a good idea. For this game I just went into the XML and made the great wall go obsolete with Masonry, an easy change to make it unbuildable. (It wouldn't have worked to just not build it, because if other civs built it, it woudl give them too much of an advantage over me.)

What I didn't think of doing was changing it to allow XP and GG points. I don't know how to do that, though i guess a quick search of XML would give it. I think that would be fair, since barbs are the main enemies.


that would definitely make the scenario way more interesting. great idea.

MoonWolf
Prince
Oct 2002
time: 19:44
29-08-2008 11:30
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#21 | report |
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Let me look up how to have barbs give GG and XP... I've asked it here before

MoonWolf
Prince
Oct 2002
time: 19:44
29-08-2008 11:43
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And.... Voilą!

I quote Snoopy's solution in there:
quote:
Originally posted by snoopy369
Hmm, it's not directly in python ... here's where it's defined in the code:

code:
if (isDead() || pDefender->isDead()) { if (isDead()) { iExperience = defenseXPValue(); iExperience = ((iExperience * iAttackerStrength) / iDefenderStrength); iExperience = range(iExperience, GC.getDefineINT("MIN_EXPERIENCE_PER_COMBAT"), GC.getDefineINT("MAX_EXPERIENCE_PER_COMBAT")); pDefender->changeExperience(iExperience, maxXPValue(), !isBarbarian(), pPlot->getOwnerINLINE() == pDefender->getOwnerINLINE()); } else { iExperience = pDefender->attackXPValue(); iExperience = ((iExperience * iDefenderStrength) / iAttackerStrength); iExperience = range(iExperience, GC.getDefineINT("MIN_EXPERIENCE_PER_COMBAT"), GC.getDefineINT("MAX_EXPERIENCE_PER_COMBAT")); changeExperience(iExperience, pDefender->maxXPValue(), !pDefender->isBarbarian(), pPlot->getOwnerINLINE() == getOwnerINLINE()); } break; }


The !pDefender->isBarbarian() returns FALSE if it's a barbarian and TRUE if it's not; this determines if XP is given to the GG or not.

If you were to change the !pDefender->isBarbarian (and the !isBarbarian) to TRUE or 1 or whatever, it would always give GG experience. This is separate from the max XP issue which is easier to fix in the XML. As a side note, it looks like setting the max XP to -1 will make it maxint automatically, according to setExperience() later on.

The changeExperience is exposed to python:
code:
CyUnit::changeExperience(int iChange, int iMax, bool bFromCombat, bool bInBorders)


This gives a unit experience iChange, up to a maximum xp level iMax, and applies that to the GG experience if bFromCombat is true, and applies the Great Wall bonus if bInBorders is true (or any other Border related bonus to GG points).

More directly, you have:
code:
void CyPlayer::changeCombatExperience(int iChange) void CyPlayer::setCombatExperience(int iExperience)

The first adds (or subtracts!) GG experience points by amount iChange (but does not affect a particular unit); the latter sets the XP to a particular level. This is used extensively in the Genghis Khan mod in Warlords if you want to see some examples of how it's used, just search for it in the events file in that mod's python folder.

I haven't tried it myself yet even I should have a looong time ago

The Priest
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Warlord
Apr 2006
time: 18:44
29-08-2008 18:54 | www
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Thanks for that, I will try to get it to work.

The next question though is are barbarians limited in the units they use, in particular do they develop later, gunpowder units? I have a feeling they don't - in which case does anyone know if this is changeable?

Also I know how to change the settings for the number of barbarians which appear per unowned tile, but is there any way of changing this as time goes on. The problem in getting this 'scenario' working really well is making it possible at the beginning but still challenging later.

jbp26
BtS Tri-League
Reigning Tri-League Champion
Philadelphia
Aug 2004
time: 18:44
29-08-2008 18:57
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#24 | report |
Increase the size of your Attachments


i have seen barbarian units up to riflemen. im not sure if they go higher than that.

snoopy369
PtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III PBEMCivilization III Democracy GameIron CiversApolyton UniversityCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG VoxC4DG The HordeC4DG Gathering Storm
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Technical Assistant
Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 12:44
29-08-2008 19:11
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#25 | report |
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They are limited in the units, definitely; it is set in the XML files (in the UNITCLASS file). They have to be set to be allowed as barbs, and they have to be set to a particular AI option (I don't recall which).

Back before Barbs were allowed Spearmen, I modded spearmen in as barbs, but it's been a while...

Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
Henderson, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 10:44
29-08-2008 19:29
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#26 | report |
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Barb units are restricted in the file Civilizations/CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml.
The last civ is CIVILIZATION_BARBARIAN, and in it there are lists of all the buildings and units that barbs cannot build.

(I cannot find any barb reference in the CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml file)

Heresson
Scenario League / Civ2-CreationNationStates
Emperor
of syrian frogs
Jun 2000
time: 19:44
04-09-2008 17:07
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I've been playing terra map. New World was one great barbarian empire. I've tried to settle there, I landed with a settler and like 5 infantry. And I was utterly crashed. Only a dozens years later on I've launched a great invasion, capturing entire southern barbarian continent. Strangely, my enemies seemed to settle there without any problem, but I was under constant barbarian attack - single units and entire armies. So yes, they can be dangerous.

snoopy369
PtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III PBEMCivilization III Democracy GameIron CiversApolyton UniversityCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG VoxC4DG The HordeC4DG Gathering Storm
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Technical Assistant
Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 12:44
04-09-2008 17:44
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#28 | report |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
Barb units are restricted in the file Civilizations/CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml.
The l