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McMonkey
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King
Kong
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Jan 2007
time: 03:03
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I am beginning a new multiplayer scenario for play at Civ Webring and will probably need some advice and ideas from the Apolyton community.
The scenario is based on the Fortress Europe map and begins in April 1938. The factions are: USSR, Germany, British Empire, Italy, France, USA and Eastern States (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Finland). All other states will be barbarian.
I have had this multiplayer scenario in mind for some time and feel that now is the time to start work in earnest. The impetus is the current game of Appeasement and Aggression that we are playing at Civ Webring.
Although it is a lot of fun there are many bugs and the balance is not great. I think this must be due to insufficient testing as some of the bugs are glaringly obvious once you play it through a bit. For example the Soviets have Leonardo's Workshop which eventually upgrades all their infantry (150+) into Panzer-grenadiers, probably the best unit in the game!
I am sure these bugs can be ironed out and there are a lot of really good features, such as the powerful infantry and non stackable rivers. Generally it is a good scenario!
This new scenario is not a re-make of Appeasement but is certainly inspired by it. Some of the ideas I have are:
- Limited barracks, airbases and port facilities
As in John Ellis' scenarios, troops must gain experience in battle.
- Non stackable rivers and mountains
Mountains are obvious, non stackable rivers can present attackers with a natural barrier as in real life. Units crossing rivers are vulnerable!
- No road pillaging
Road pillaging can quickly turn a WWII scenario into a snails paced WWI slogging match!
- More rewards for waging war
There are some rewards in Appeasement. I would like to expand on this to promote an agressive game.
- Diplomatic house rules to try and recreate some historical situations
A lot of multiplayer games are predictable. Everyone trades and builds up their forces while picking off the independent cities unchallenged. I would like to create some house rules that liven things up a bit. IE: If Germany invades Poland then France and Britain must declare war. I don't want to dictate the players every move but there should be some consequences to their actions.
I could even create a set of Casus Belli for the Allies and Soviets. This idea will need to be discussed thoroughly to get right.
- Unique advantages for each player (Wonders/Units)
Each nation will have its own unique advantage. This can be done with the units and also the wonders. For example Britain rules the waves but by placing Magellan's Expedition in Valetta the Italians or Germans can gain the upper hand if they capture Malta.
By placing Sun Tzu's Academy in Warsaw the Germans or Russians would have a strong incentive to capture the city, especially in a game with no barracks!
The first thing I want to try and get advice on are the unit stats. I have always used stats loosely based around the vanilla game, like A6 D4.
I would like to try and use the higher type of stats (like A30 D20) seen in many scenarios. I think this would allow me to fine tune the units a bit more. I have seen them used in Appeasement and many of Eivind's scenarios but I'm unsure of where to start with them. Is it just a case of multiplying the original stats by four and then fine tuning them?
I also wanted to open a new thread to discuss ideas as I enjoy it  I would also like to try and use as many good ideas from other scenarios that I can plunder so suggestions are welcome. What makes a good multiplayer game?
 Attachment: euro.png
This has been downloaded 369 time(s).
Last edited by McMonkey on 25-07-2008 at 07:30
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Jerec
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Prince
U.S.
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Nov 2007
time: 19:03
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Wonderful project.
quote:
Originally posted by McMonkey
The scenario is based on the Fortress Europe map and begins in April 1938. The factions are: USSR, Germany, British Empire, Italy, France, USA and Eastern States (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Finland). All other states will be barbarian.
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The more civs, the more diplomacy. 
What purpose will the USA serve? It seems too small to be a proper civ...just a resevoir of units if Hitler attacks Britain/France?
quote:
Although it is a lot of fun there are many bugs and the balance is not great. I think this must be due to insufficient testing as some of the bugs are glaringly obvious once you play it through a bit. For example the Soviets have Leonardo's Workshop which eventually upgrades all their infantry (150+) into Panzer-grenadiers, probably the best unit in the game!
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Will playtesting be by PBEM or singleplayer?
quote:
I am sure these bugs can be ironed out and there are a lot of really good features, such as the powerful infantry and non stackable rivers. Generally it is a good scenario!
This new scenario is not a re-make of Appeasement but is certainly inspired by it. Some of the ideas I have are:
- Limited barracks, airbases and port facilities
As in John Ellis' scenarios, troops must gain experience in battle.
- Non stackable rivers and mountains
Mountains are obvious, non stackable rivers can present attackers with a natural barrier as in real life. Units crossing rivers are vulnerable!
- No road pillaging
Road pillaging can quickly turn a WWII scenario into a snails paced WWI slogging match!
- More rewards for waging war
There are some rewards in Appeasement. I would like to expand on this to promote an agressive game.
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With MGE size events?
quote:
- Diplomatic house rules to try and recreate some historical situations
A lot of multiplayer games are predictable. Everyone trades and builds up their forces while picking off the independent cities unchallenged. I would like to create some house rules that liven things up a bit. IE: If Germany invades Poland then France and Britain must declare war. I don't want to dictate the players every move but there should be some consequences to their actions.
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I think that we didn't react from neutral cities being picked off because we couldn't react. None of the nations were prepared to back up any threats, IE they didn't have any armies capable of attacking.
quote:
I could even create a set of Casus Belli for the Allies and Soviets. This idea will need to be discussed thoroughly to get right.
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quote:
- Unique advantages for each player (Wonders/Units)
Each nation will have its own unique advantage. This can be done with the units and also the wonders. For example Britain rules the waves but by placing Magellan's Expedition in Valetta the Italians or Germans can gain the upper hand if they capture Malta.
By placing Sun Tzu's Academy in Warsaw the Germans or Russians would have a strong incentive to capture the city, especially in a game with no barracks!
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I would think that Sun Tzu's Academy would imbalance a game with no barracks. Didn't Eivind originally give that to Germany in Belle Epoque, and then take it out in later versions?
quote:
The first thing I want to try and get advice on are the unit stats. I have always used stats loosely based around the vanilla game, like A6 D4.
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Base 'em on Appeasement. 
One more thing- perhaps a house rule against air cover of land units. It seems a little too unrealistic to me, since the stacks are practically invincible if done correctly.
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Emperor
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Mar 2000
time: 04:03
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Q: why do we need a million zillion WWII scenarios? How about some mor ediversity like in the good ol times?
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McMonkey
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King
Kong
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Jan 2007
time: 03:03
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Using the Fortress Europe stats as a basis and multiplying them by four I have come up with the basis for my ground unit stats.
ROAD MOVEMENT MULTIPLIER=3
INFANTRY
Cost 6 A32 D24 HP3 FP2 M2 (Alpine, Ignore Walls)
Good defence, good at city assault, relatively cheap. Paras will be a bit more expensive and British/US Infantry will have Marine flag.
MOTORIZED INFANTRY
Cost 8 A32 D20 HP2 FP2 M4 (Ignore Walls)
Good defence, good at city assault, moderate price, mobile.
CORPS ARTILLERY
Cost 12 A40 D8 HP2 FP4 M2 (Ignore Walls)
Poor defence, excellent city assault, very expensive.
ARMOUR
Cost 10 A48 D16 HP2 FP3 Move 4 (Ignore ZOC)
Good attack, moderate defence, expensive, mobile.
HEAVY ARMOUR
Cost 12 A56 D18 HP2 FP3 M3 (Ignore ZOC)
Very good attack, good defence, very expensive.
I will need to test these stats to see how they work out. With the higher A/D stats I will be able to tweak the various nations units and unit types to clearly define each type of unit.
I will need to look at cost to make sure each type of unit is worth building and to avoid rush building of the better units being too cheap.
Your comments are welcome.
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curtsibling
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Moderator
and Invisible Lizard
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May 2002
time: 03:03
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@McMonkey:
I was wondering why the units have such gigantic stats?
Not that this is a bad thing, I am just curious to see how
they play in-game...Battles must take a while to resolve
between certain units, and that would be quite fun!
When it comes to governments, I tend to look at the real
WW2 governments. Communism I give to the Soviets, as
it makes sense...Also the Germans get it too, these two
tyrannies are the same in many ways, so I call the govt
'dictatorship'...Monarchies I give to the lesser nations,
and rename the 'corruption' to 'expenses'.
I tend to give the republic to the Allies, and make sure the
happiness wonders and improvements are spread around.
But messing around with this could be interesting, giving
the communists republic could be good, giving them the
research boost that they always seem to lack in WW2
scenarios...At the end, it is up to you!
See what works good for each civ to make it fun to play,
and rename the govt to suit the nation...
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Jerec
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Prince
U.S.
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Nov 2007
time: 19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by McMonkey
Using the Fortress Europe stats as a basis and multiplying them by four I have come up with the basis for my ground unit stats.
ROAD MOVEMENT MULTIPLIER=3
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The bigger the map, the bigger the multiplier probably needs to be...
quote:
INFANTRY
Cost 6 A32 D24 HP3 FP2 M2 (Alpine, Ignore Walls)
Good defence, good at city assault, relatively cheap. Paras will be a bit more expensive and British/US Infantry will have Marine flag.
MOTORIZED INFANTRY
Cost 8 A32 D20 HP2 FP2 M4 (Ignore Walls)
Good defence, good at city assault, moderate price, mobile.
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No Mech. Infantry? There was simply mot. infantry on wheels, and then there was mechanized infantry: a majority of mot. infantry, a minority of tanks, and self-propelled artillery. IIRC they were more mobile and powerful than regular mot. divisions.
quote:
CORPS ARTILLERY
Cost 12 A40 D8 HP2 FP4 M2 (Ignore Walls)
Poor defence, excellent city assault, very expensive.
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 We didn't use the Corps Artillery in Appeasement at all, except in the beginning when there was nothing else.
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McMonkey
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King
Kong
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Jan 2007
time: 03:03
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Getting the house rules right will take some work. I too am in favour of historical accuracy but think it is important to allow the player to be able to alter history. For example, France or Britain could easily have sent troops to support the Republicans, as Germany sent the Condor Legion, if the political climate had been right.
I will find a way to limit the number of troops that can be sent to fight directly or be gifted to the combatants. Eivind devised a good system for Proxy wars in First Strike where each side was allocated a quota based on shield cost which was calculated based on the size of the country the Proxy war was being fought in:
"A player may only bring with him x100 (planes count x200 (including helicopters), ships nothing) worth of units in terms of shields of what the actual city size is. If a proxy war is started in a size 5 city, the player is allowed to bring with him 500 shields worth of units.
Whole countries are represented, so if the country has more than one city, the city sizes are added together as one city size to determine how many shields may be brought along.
If you lose units in the fight you may send in additional reserve forces. You can send unlimited units into the territory, as long as you stay within the shield limit."
I will try and devise a similar method for the Spanish Civil War. There will also be diplomatic house rules that will govern the way the nations interact. Germany and Russia will have a fairly free hand while the Democracies will only be able to declare war if they have a valid pretext, such as Anschluss between Austria and Germany, violation of Czechoslovakia, Belgium or Poland's neutrality and so on.
This system may seem complex but most people into CivII will have a good background knowledge of the era and will hopefully enjoy the diplomatic role play element.
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McMonkey
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King
Kong
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Jan 2007
time: 03:03
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Attachment: 
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