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Please post your thoughts on which rules, if any, should apply to this game.
Once we know rules we want to examine in more detail we could start a thread for each issue to discuss in more detail.
Once a rule has been agreed upon by the majority of the teams I'll transfer it to the 'Rules and Frequently Asked Questions' thread. 
Last edited by RobWorham on 26-01-2008 at 20:57
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To get the ball rolling :
If we are playing simultaneous turns then I think we should enforce some form of clearly defined 'No Double Move' ruling.
Last edited by RobWorham on 26-01-2008 at 20:57
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Deity
The Holy City
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Nov 2002
time: 17:12
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The double move rule needs only apply when declaring war or at war. That in itself can be problematic - as then you need to determine how long in a turn does does a civ need to wait before playig again.
Given experience in other games, I think this is something that needs to be discussed ahead of time.
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Emperor
Space
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Sep 2002
time: 17:12
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Let's not restrict posting in the public forum for this one, regardless of contact and all that rigamarole. All we've proven with the past several games is that when you cut out the public aspect of these things, it definitely causes interest to wane much faster.
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Prince
Williamsburg, Virginia
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Aug 2002
time: 17:12
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I assume what's meant by double move is when one civ moves, ends turn causing the term to flip, and then moves again immedaitely after?
Just to be a devil's advocate, why is such a rule thought to be needed? I can see that it would enable surprise attacks more easily, but then, the strategy of a surprise attack has been used many times in real warfare as well.
(I'm generally a builder player, so not asking this in order to get an advantage for my side. Just genuinely wondering.)
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Emperor
Minnesota, USA
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Dec 2001
time: 16:12
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How about, if you declare war, you just can't be the last one to move in a turn?
That way you can double-move when it's convenient but for war purposes there isn't a double-move to start in.
After that, well, that's just a part of the mechanic, and you need to plan for the possibility.
Another option would be to have "The Nation of Rob" and Rob would simply be the one to end the turn at some normal point every turn flip (assuming that this Nation of Rob could be put on some 1-tile island somewhere to not interfere accidentally in anything.) Say, around an hour before the end of the turn all the real teams have played and otherwise just holds the turn so that way the turns always have the same timing.
My thoughts.
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Emperor
As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
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Jun 2002
time: 15:12
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Allow me to copy a piece of a PM I sent when learning this thing was in the works:
quote:
If you want my personal opinion, if you are looking to set up a game, and want it successfull, fewer, larger teams would be a key.
Personally, I would say cap the teams at 3-4. Smaller map. Keep it in Pitboss to prevent any unsavory cheats, but disable the simultaneous turns. This makes the pitboss server act only as an enforcer of whatever turn limit. Turn order is maintained. There are no possibilities for double moves, but also no possibilities for replaying of saves. It's the best of both worlds.
Capping the number of teams and a smaller map keeps the turns moving swiftly, and pitboss enforcing the timer makes sure of no one holding it up. |
The double move is just plain horrendous in Civ. And it's not just a problem when at war. Beat someone to a hut, beat someone to that settler spot. Anything involving movement can utilize a double move to obtain it. (I'm not entirely sure how turn order is decided for wonders and the like in a simultaneous turn environment)
With wars, thats 4 uncontested moves for a fast mover. (Or in an extreme case of a woody II Impi, up to 8 uncontested moves.)
What's worst, no matter what rule we make, it's impossible to enforce. We all have schedules, and windows of opportunity when we can log in.
And, a Demogame does not need to be moving so terribly quickly. Turn a day, turn every other day?
Keep turn order. The game is designed as a Turn Based game. It is balanced as a turn based game. Turn order is a key ingredient. Keep the number of teams down and size of map down to keep the saves clipping along. Keep it in Pitboss to prevent anyone from being tempted to cheat.
IMO, all that jazz.
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Deity
amongst equals.
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Jan 2004
time: 23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
The double move is just plain horrendous in Civ. And it's not just a problem when at war. Beat someone to a hut, beat someone to that settler spot. Anything involving movement can utilize a double move to obtain it. (I'm not entirely sure how turn order is decided for wonders and the like in a simultaneous turn environment)
With wars, thats 4 uncontested moves for a fast mover. (Or in an extreme case of a woody II Impi, up to 8 uncontested moves.)
What's worst, no matter what rule we make, it's impossible to enforce. We all have schedules, and windows of opportunity when we can log in.
And, a Demogame does not need to be moving so terribly quickly. Turn a day, turn every other day?
Keep turn order. The game is designed as a Turn Based game. It is balanced as a turn based game. Turn order is a key ingredient. Keep the number of teams down and size of map down to keep the saves clipping along. Keep it in Pitboss to prevent anyone from being tempted to cheat. |
Good points here. 
24-48 hour simultaneous turns pitboss would give a alot of pressure for those teams which will end up with a single turnplayer (backed up by advisors or not), something that often happened in my demogame experience.
I think a 36 hour sequential pitboss server with something between 3-5 teams could work well. Several days time of discussion within the team between turns, and a 12 hour overlap if the playday of a team happens to be a busy day for the turnplayer. It gives a max of 2 turns a week/team: not too crowded, and not too fast to have to make quick on the spot decisions.
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Deity
of Spam
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Dec 2003
time: 22:12
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If the game isn't in simul turns, to get a turn every other day with four teams each team would have to play in a twelve hour window. Now I don't know about you UnO but I'm not going to schedule my life so that I can play the turn at 5 am in the morning. If we go back to a turn every 24 hours the enjoyment from having a swiftly moving game disappears somewhat because the the game won't be progressing swiftly. people will get bored and disappear. I was hoping that this game could move quickly so that we might get it done in roughly 1.5-2 years max (Normal speed, 2 days per turn, simul). But if you disable simul you also get the worst of both worlds; when the pitboss server is down the game will get delayed even more, so it could be even longer that a PBEM.
I don't know what you guys have against double moves. Pay attention to the game and they aren't a problem. The game is balanced for simul turns as well. I simul turns environment wonders and the first team to a tech is a tossup (though Firaxis ought to change it back to the most overflow so at least players can not just get lucky, but that has been a gripe for over a year because somebody ****ed up and changed it for no reason).
I agree that a small number of teams would be good, though I think 4 teams is a bit on the small side, 5-6 on a small map with low sea level would be fine in pangaea (and I would hope the map would be checked).
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Emperor
As cuddly as a cactus, as charming as an eel.
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Jun 2002
time: 15:12
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To each their own. I personally do not like simultaneous turns, specifically due to double moves. I find them as bad or worse as someone reloading a PBEM save.
"oh plan for them". Anyone worth their salt that was going to use them would be sure to use them in a way where you couldn't plan for it.
And any rule to try to keep them out just plain isn't going to work. Or you do force people to wait and try to play a t 5AM. (which would be a gloriously wonderful time for me personally, actually, it's the 'normal' times of 7pm or so I can't do). Especially in a war involving more than one team. Simultaneous turns will lead to double moves.
Turn base games are designed to have a turn order. Simultaneous turns remove that to expedite the game. Personally I do not think it's worth it. I'm fine with a save twice a week, but then I don't have time to look at a demogame save every day or every other day. (pbems are another matter and take far less time)
Yes, if you do Simultaneous turns a few more teams can play and keep speed up just fine. Without it, smalle numbers of teams are more critical.
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Emperor
Shadow Gallery
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Oct 2005
time: 00:12
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but CivStats isn't very stable and it has been proven that even with CivStats there is no way to control double moves.
One civ can log on multiple times during a turn so there is no way of knowing when they moved the units.
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Emperor
Shadow Gallery
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Oct 2005
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Whip[lash
UGH!
I didn't know that (obviously). I guess we would have to ban multiple log ins then. |
That would be a problem for teams that have many players who want to log in and take a look.
But the rule could be this: "No logging in after hitting EOT"
That way it would be easier to monitor via CivStats.
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Ellestar
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