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GhostOfDisco
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Prince
of Pizza
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May 2001
time: 17:02
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As I have mentioned in some other threads, I've decided to eventually make a scenario based on the reign of Polish king John III Sobieski. Now, given that my US Civil War 2013 scenario is still not completed, and that scenarios can take a while, it may be some time before this thing is through. This doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though. 
So, without further ado, some thing's I've considered:
- When should the scenario begin? Sobieski's reign lasted twenty-two years, which seems a long enough time for a good scenario (especially when dividing the years into months for turns), but Sobieski's military career began a good time before that, including helping kick the Swedes out of Poland and fight the Turks. So I'm not sure exactly when to begin the scenario. Any help?
- I've decided to make the Polish government a Republic. Why?
quote:
- The Polish government was a quasi-constitutional monarchy at this time (the "nobles' democracy"), including the fact that the Voivods held considerable power for a good amount of time (though it doesn't seem so during this time - or does it?) and Civ 2 decribes its "Republic" government as a collection of autonomous city-states who chose to form a loose alliance or something. So I think it sorta fits.
- The unhappiness factor of the military units (which I might eliminate with Women's Suffrage - any idea of what that wonder could be?) as well as the support factor might illustrate the difficulty in raising an army under the Golden Liberty, which I think would be realistic.
- Likewise, the interference of the Sejm (Senate) in Poland's foreign policy would seem realistic, and realistically limit the King's power.
- Poland called itself a Republic during this time.
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- What kind of tech tree should I have, if any? Military and social reforms seem on the list. But what kinds? I know Sobieski tried to reform the Polish state into a monarchy more like the absolutist ones in Western Europe (like France), but was there a possibility of reforming the Sejm into a majority-vote system rather than the infamous libretum veto? (As someone recently said, for a Civ 2 scenario, history ends at turn one.)
- Vienna. How could one make a Sobieski scenario without it? My idea is this: In 1683, if you've successfully managed to ward of the Turks since then, they'll invade Austria and try to take Vienna. If you haven't been able to ward of the Turks, they'll blitzkrieg Poland. (From what I've read, it seems they invaded Austria primarily because they couldn't make headway into the Republic of Two Countries.)
- Furthermore, I'd like to make the battle of Vienna an epic, hard-won battle (even though the actual battle took only a day. Any idea on how to do this?
- On the topic of Vienna, how can I ensure that the Polish forces get to Vienna on time without allowing them to march through the Holy Roman Empire from turn 1? I'm considering using a second map for this (the scenario will be ToT), but I'd prefer not to. Of course, any veteran Civ 2 player knows about your "allies"' tendency to block your path, even when it's in that ally's best interest. :roll:
- Troops. What kinds to I need? I've got a number of Polish, Russian, Turkish and other graphics (mainly from fairline's 30 Years' War sets), but I still wonder. I know that, at least "to Sobieski" the foreign troops (which seemed to comprise most of the Polish infantry at the time) were of lower quality than the native troops, but was this true when Sobieski first became a great general? How do you simulate the recruiting of foreign infantry, as opposed to native? Do I need seperate pikeman and musketeer graphics, as the scenario is strategic in scope? Should I give the player the possibility of a strong Polish navy? What kind of ships could I build? I've heard that a number of Muslim Tartars fought with the Polish army. Do I need to create special units for them? If so, how do I keep it their recruitment confined to the Tartar areas of the Commonwealth.
- Of course, hussars will be in the game. They'll be elite cavalry, but expensive to build (based on the historical levels of hussars vs. Cossack cavalry in the Polish army, I'm thinking of having hussars as three times more expensive, what do you think?)
- Religion. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, while officially Catholic, had a number of faiths practiced by its citizens. I'm thinking of dividing the Temple, Cathedral and Colosseum improvements into Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox houses of worship, with them giving greater happiness under their respective rulers(i.e., Protestant Churches will make more people content under Protestant Swedes than Catholic Poles, for example, and Orthodox churches will work better under the Orthodox Russians.) Any help on that?
- Any detailed historical sources I can read on the reign of Sobieski? Some 'net sources seem to jump from his election to the battle of Vienna, which is at least a decade or so. If the good sources are online and/or free, so much the better. (Yes, I know of the Osprey books, but the two ones on Poland are roughly $60 together.)
- Map. Currently I'm using a cropped version of the Red Front map (it covers all the area I probably need - perhaps more - even though I got rid of a bit of the Russian hinterland). I've tried using the map taken from Härtel's giant Europe map, but there still seems to be some problems with that. What do you think?
Well, that's all for now. Feel free to comment, offer suggestions, etc. And, in an amazing coincidence, I found out that Mel Gibson is looking to help with a Sobieski-Vienna movie to be flimed in Poland next year. Looks like I'll have more of an audience for my scenario.
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McMonkey
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King
Kong
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Jan 2007
time: 23:02
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If Heresson is Maciej Czy then yes! He is indeed a frogging genius! I remember being very inspired by this event/unit creation idea. It means that you can centralize unit production and isolated cities cannot produce formidable units by themselves. The scenario was very tough too. Oh, and the scenario name was: Komnenai!
Here is how it works:
Training depot:
Cavalry camp2,no, 1, 0.,127, 0a,0d, 1h,0f, 11,0, 0, no, 000000000000001
Recruit:
Recruit, Ban, 0, 1.,0, 1a,0d, 1h,2f, 15,0, 0, U2, 001000000010010
Event A:
@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Cavalry camp
attacker=Romans
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
New cavalry regiment trained
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Byz.Cavalry
owner=TRIGGERATTACKER
veteran=no
homecity=Constantinople
locations
115,49
101,31
105,37
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
endlocations
@ENDIF
+
Event B:
@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Cavalry camp
attacker=Romans
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
CREATEUNIT
unit=Cavalry camp
owner=Barbarians
veteran=no
homecity=NONE
locations
98,28
99,29
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
endlocations
@ENDIF
Obviously this event works best in pre-Flight eras else I would borrow it for my WWII ToT remake.
 Attachment: vienna 1.jpg
This has been downloaded 569 time(s).
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GhostOfDisco
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Prince
of Pizza
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May 2001
time: 17:02
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Yep, I've got Konmenai. I know how the recruitment thing works - which is probably why I could'nt raise any more cavalry when the Turks conquered central Asia Minor.
Though, the concept would be useful when recruiting "local" units (i.e. Tartar "camps" emerge near Polish-held Tartar cities, when destroyed with a "recruit" then creates a Polish Tartar unit, for example.)
As for the foreign infantry, I think the best option for it might be what was done in Exodus II - That guy (forgot the Israeli unit's name) "bought" units by "destroying" purchase units, and when that was done money was dectracted from the Israeli civ and a fighting unit (of the puchase unit's type) was created.
Of course, there is the possibility of abuse - the player could give Poland an inordinate mass of foreign infantry units, but then the abuse could be limited by a number of factors - how many moves the "purchaser unit" has, the quick loss of money (can ToT allow the player to go into debt), etc.
And what should the Sobieski unit look like? What did he wear when going into battle? I've seen some pictures, but sometimes the armor looks more symbolic than actual (one picture has him in psuedo-Roman armor) and, well... I dunno. I do know that he made a point to wear traditional Polish costume, so...
Werd, I think I'll try and use a cropped version of your European map. Would the size of the resulting area be bigger than Red Front's? I don't know. Though I have considered using your map for a hypothetical 1985 Cold War-goes-hot scenario...
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GhostOfDisco
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Prince
of Pizza
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May 2001
time: 17:02
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Well, I've been doing city placement, anmd have been using Werd's WWII scenario and this map. I've had some trouble, though - I'm not sure just which cities on the WWII map existed at the time of the scenarios (I know some, like Stalingrad, hadn't been founded yet), and sometimes I'm not sure where the "Jasinski map"'s cities are on the WWII map (or my cropped copy for the scen). Anyone give any help?
I've also done a few unit and improvement graphics, which I'll show here when I have the chance.
Oh, and does anyone know where Czestochowa is?
And some thoughts about Wonders:
The Black Madonna of Czestochowa will take the place of Bach's Cathedral.
The Salt mines of Wieliczka - should it be the Colossus (extra trade) or Crusade (extra shields)?
Should I make Wawel (in Krakow) the Women's Suffrage wonder, or should it be, say, the Royal Castle in Warsaw?
Can you build a Cathedral without a Temple? Because Temples, Cathedrals, and Colosseums (or at least their improvement slots) play an important role in the Catholic-Orthodox-Protestant division in my scenario (at least I hope it does).
Last edited by GhostOfDisco on 21-04-2007 at 18:51
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Heresson
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Emperor
of syrian frogs
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Jun 2000
time: 00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
Yep, I've got Konmenai. I know how the recruitment thing works - which is probably why I could'nt raise any more cavalry when the Turks conquered central Asia Minor. |
Because You had to held on until You discovered Alexios Tech, which would create two new training camps next to Cople... You lose Asia Minor, but You can re-conquer west of if... or all, except for that recently I discovered a bug in this scenario that makes that hard.
Anyway, I'd be delighted to help, with city choice and stuff... But my civ2 doesn't work on my new comp, the old one is broke, so no playtesting, and I am fairly busy, so sorry for any delays.
I may search for Sobieski... There's a baroque statue of him killing a Turk in Lazienki Park But it has no colours. I'm sure it won't be hard to find something.
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GhostOfDisco
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Prince
of Pizza
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May 2001
time: 17:02
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Here's some graphics I made/modified for the scenario...
 Attachment: sobieski_graphics.png
This has been downloaded 507 time(s).
Last edited by GhostOfDisco on 23-04-2007 at 22:04
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GhostOfDisco
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Prince
of Pizza
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May 2001
time: 17:02
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Well, I was able to get a lot of stuff from my virtual PC disk before reinstalling the whole thing, so I was able to get the map. I'll try and send it to you on Monday.
Also, I did some research on the Battle of Vienna - more specifically, the troop movements and whatnot, and so I've got an event thingy planned. Basically, the Ottomans will declare war when they historically do, and on the date when they fianlly mustered their army, bunch of units will appear in Edirne (sp? - what was once Adrianople), where the Turks historically started their march on Vienna. If you haven't been doing so well against the Turks (they went for Vienna, it seems, because Sobieski was always beating them so badly  ) - they won't head for Vienna - they'll head for Poland (I'm thinking of making Krakow their intended target - would that be historically plausible?)!
Some questions on that:
- The MOVEUNIT command. I'm planning to spawn the units in one place (the former Adrianople), and head toward one square (Vienna or Krakow). Would it be best for me to give them starting point, finish point, and let them be on their merry way, or would I need to make them "turn" as it were, in the right direction?
- Movement points and distance. Sobieski's army embarked from Krakow in August 1683, and got to Vienna by September 11-12. So it took only about a month to get there. I wonder how this would translate into movement points for infantry, cavalry and so forth.
- Getting from Poland to Austria. Of course, the Austrians will be allied to the Poles at the time, but we all know that AI allies have a tendency to block their erstwile "friends"' pathways (I know in 2194 Days of War, playing as the US, the Soviets putting T-34s in the way of my European campaign.) I'm thinking of a separate map allowing you to go from Krakow to Vienna unhindered by "allied" units, but how exactly to activate it?
- Just what kind of different types of units did the Turks have? I've got several Ottoman units from fairline's various compilations, but I'm not sure of the differences of each of them.
- The victory of Vienna. For this, I plan to have a good amount of text for the celebration of this momentous event. But how to trigger it? Since the victory was because Vienna was not taken, it seems that the CITYTAKEN trigger would not be the one to use. I'm thinking of a "standard of Mohammed" unit to trigger the victory, but how to ensure that it is generated only when the Turkish army is outside Vienna, and not destroyed by Random Austrian Patrol #5889 which is patrolling outside Vienna and the Turkish army hundreds of miles away?
Just some other things I was thinking about :
- Should I have a separate "pikeman" units? Given that the Polish infantry (at least those raised and/or trained in Poland) had a musket-to-pike ratio of 8:1, it seems their infantry could simply be represent by a musketman. But what of the foreign infantry? It seems that pikes and muskets were side-by-side rather than in exclusive units (musket-only or pike-only), but I'm not sure.
- Should the pancerni be able to be raised from any city, or only Cossack strongholds?
- Any advice on when I should begin the scenario? Should it begin with his election as king, or should I go back to his Hetman (or Grand Hetman) days, or perhaps all the way back when he was a minor Polish commander during the Deluge? I know I've asked this question at least once before...
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fairline
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King
of the wing
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Sep 2002
time: 23:02
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Pancerni were cossacks in name only; they were the 2nd grade of cavalry after hussars with poorer mounts and equipment. They were not raised from the cossack areas and by the time of your scenario were more numerous than the expensive and aristocratic hussars.
The point about including separate pike and shot units in 17th century scenario is to allow the player to deploy defensive and offensive infantry.
Last edited by fairline on 02-05-2007 at 22:56
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GhostOfDisco
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Prince
of Pizza
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May 2001
time: 17:02
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Attachment: 
I'll ty to send a good copy of the file when I can.