 |
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
In my effort to bring Clash back to the “populated” world that was seen in demo 4 (and previous versions), I’m proposing this “model” for barbarians, minor civs or whatever label has been applied to them in the past. In order to fully explain this idea, I’ll give a bit of background on where it comes from (since it was originally developed for Empires In Time (EIT) – which was a previous project I was involved with).
A Note on EIT in General
As can be seen in the attachment below, EIT was developed with 500 civs in the beginning (actually what Clash refers to as Ethnic Groups – each was its own unique empire in the early stages of the game, though in practice after 1000 years or so into the game, the average was 200 civs and it remained around that number for the rest of the game). It was also developed on a 250*250 map of the world (an approximation of the Earth’s diameter). This was referred to as the full-scale game and, was developed as and considered the “standard” game. It was (obviously) being developed for high-end systems, though there were three-quarter, half and one-quarter scales of the game as well (in addition to scenarios, random maps and the editors to create more scenarios) for lower-end systems.
A Note on Population
In my original research into ancient populations, I came across an estimate that some 100 billion humans had been born since 10,000 BC, world-wide. I don’t recall the source, only that I felt it was trustworthy enough to assume the estimate to be true. All further details of the “model” were developed on the assumption that this estimate is true. See the attached image for the population details, at an average breakdown through time.
I must note here that the only truly useful dates listed below were the first and last. The ones in the center are basically useless because they don’t take into account the effects of deaths, technology, infrastructure, etc.
Thus, as you can see from the attachment, on the first turn in 10,000 BC, the total world population is 12,250,000, averaging 700 per tile, with 1,400 (700 being of the Native Ethnic Group and 700 being of the civ’s Ethnic Group) in the lands owned by the 500 civs, and 2,100 (700 being of the Native Ethnic Group and 1,400 being of the civ’s Ethnic Group) in the capitol city of those civs. Note that with the doubled population in civ territory and tripled population in the capitol, the total world population actually exceeds 12,250,000 in 10,000 BC. Note also, that these numbers are the theoretical basis that I used to develop the following “model”, and therefore they are not a practical application.
 Attachment: population.gif
This has been downloaded 97 time(s).
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
Natives
-Edit- Text was a bit too large on that first go... 
I support Mark’s (and I’m sure others) view that most tiles in the world should be inhabited from the start of the game. There were small bands of people in nearly every corner of the Earth after all, so it is realistic and logical. With that said, I also support Laurent’s comment (somewhere fairly recently) that settling is fun (at least a little bit of settling is). Therefore, we should have some “state-sponsored” settling and auto-settling as well. In previous Clash Demos (demo 4 and earlier), you had to conquer any land that you didn’t start with to expand, and there was little to no virgin land, which was not entirely realistic*, but playable. It was from these early demos of Clash, plus the population research I did for EIT, that gave me the ideas described here, so in a way this idea is basically just finding its way home.
*I say not entirely realistic because places like New Zealand and Iceland were totally virgin land (even though these early Clash demos didn’t include them anyway), and the population of many civilizations simply settled anywhere they chose, displacing the native peoples or absorbing them, thus it hasn’t always been necessary to conquer these lands.
The basis for including Natives is adding a property to each terrain type that indicates the starting population for that type of terrain. The map is then seeded, tile by tile, with Natives (a special EG**) in the appropriate places (which for now could simply be every land tile in the scenario) with the indicated starting population of the terrain type in the map cell. There is some detail that I’ll skip regarding setting up civilizations that pertains to random map placement. When the time comes to do proper random maps (with civ placement), I’ll fill in those details, but for now, if Natives are included in the scenario (ideally as a sub-tag of the scenario tag [i.e. <natives/> - in a similar manner to the civilization tag’s sub-tag <selectable/>]), then Natives exist on every tile on the map. If Natives aren’t included in the scenario, then the land is virgin land, just as currently done.
**Natives are a special EG because they have the following characteristics (always, until assimilated, of course):
<culture>
<nationality>Native</nationality>
<culturalPrototype>
<traditionalism>1.00</traditionalism>
<nationalism>1.00</nationalism>
<landConnection>1.00</landConnection>
<importanceOfReligion>1.00</importanceOfReligion>
<corruption>0.00</corruption>
<aggressiveness>1.00</aggressiveness>
<ethnicTolerance>0.00</ethnicTolerance>
<religiousTolerance>0.00</religiousTolerance>
<asceticism>0.00</asceticism> (not sure about this one)
<individualism>0.50</individualism> (not sure about this one)
</culturalPrototype>
</culture>
Also, (once cultural assimilation is a part of the game) they assimilate much faster/easier than other EGs do.
These Natives are not a civilization. They have no province, no owner, nothing. They do adhere to the population growth and migration rules as all other populations do (even migrating into civilization territory). When military units of civilizations move across these tiles, they may spawn militia to fight off invaders. Other than these few characteristics, the tiles inhabited by Natives behave just like current (as of demo 8) un-owned tiles do. That is, any civ’s units may freely walk across them without changing ownership. To change the ownership of a tile, a Civ must have a settled population there (via auto-settling or state-sponsored settling). Tiles inhabited by Natives behave just like current un-owned tiles do, so auto-settling occurs the same as it currently does, with the minor exception that some people of the Native EG come with the tile (for free, though they also bring lower education and the problems of a multi-ethnic empire). State-sponsored settling (loading up a unit with settlers) occurs just as it does currently as well, with the same minor exception.
One major exception to the rule that “tiles owned by Natives behave like current un-owned tiles” is that they may spawn new civilizations. Every civilization maintains a tally of the number of Native tiles it has “absorbed” through settling. This tally gives the percentage chance (tally/10 actually) of a great leader uniting the Natives against their conquerors. This chance is checked each time that a new tile is absorbed, and if there are enough Native tiles available in the immediate area, a new civilization is created in the area. This new civilization is immediately at war with the civ that spawned it. Note that spawning of new civilizations need not make it in the first incarnation of Natives, to make Natives a useful component of the game.
The second major exception to the rule that “tiles owned by Natives behave like current un-owned tiles” is that mass migrations can occur from large swaths of Native land. Mass migrations are triggered by Native tiles being beyond the critical population threshold, which is 3 times the starting population of the terrain type. Each time a tile reaches this threshold, it checks with its neighbors, and if enough tiles in the area are also beyond the threshold, then mass migration occurs. This is basically a grid of tiles, picking up all population except a number equal to the starting population for the particular terrain in the given cell, and migrating to another location of the world (they just pick a direction, not a destination), in formation, then settling, in formation, once they have traveled for at least 20 moves. Note that mass migrations need not make it in the first incarnation of Natives, to make Natives a useful component of the game.
That’s the general idea. If I’ve been unclear on any points, feel free to ask for more clarification. Also, any comments are welcome, as always.
Last edited by alms66 on 13-01-2005 at 16:18
|
|
| |
|
|
Warlord
|
Nov 2003
time: 22:18
| |
|
|
I remember having read that there were about 5 million people in the world in 10000 BC (or even later) and that the number of humans born since then is around 65-70 billion.
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
I never could find a reliable estimate of the world's population in 10,000 BC, what's your source?
Since I never found an estimate, I worked backwards from 100,000,000,000 to 10,000 BC, rounded up the average per tile to 700, and then reworked the numbers back up to its current 100,339,750,000. BTW, the "actual" world population in 10,000 BC would be 15,750,000 using the theoretical averages and accounting for double population in civ territory and triple in the civ's capitols.
|
|
| |
|
|
Warlord
|
Nov 2003
time: 22:18
| |
|
|
Guiness Book of Records
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
Well that's certainly one place I never thought to look. What kind of record is that holding exactly?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Hi Guys:
I think that we do eventually need exceptions to the rules for pastoralist (non-settled, migratory) peoples. For settled, if primitive, peoples we should just have them be small normal civs. Certainly we will be without special coding for pastoralists for some time, and natives, minor civs, etc. should just be low-tech normal civs.
There are some issues though, with xml things like diplomatic status and civ definition that aren't handled gracefully in the xml now. If there are 250 civs (most small) in a game, putting in all that extra code would be Very tedious.
Maybe feudal civs with zero central power would be a good way to handle this for the intermediate future. (I think a fair amount of new code would be needed, but I could be very wrong.) The feudal civs could be based upon ethnic groups (Gauls etc.) and cover a large number of squares. Since they are feudal each province would essentially stand militarily on its own. If they had no standing army, but only militia generated as needed, they might do the job of minor civs reasonably well while not stressing out the scenario designer too much.
[edit: modify and add to last para]
Last edited by Mark_Everson on 16-01-2005 at 14:03
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
If you want to deal with 100s of 1 tile civs, then go right ahead and do that, not that it matters what I say anyhow, right...
I'll check back from time to time to see how Clash is doing, maybe even offer up an idea or suggestion or two. Later.
Last edited by alms66 on 16-01-2005 at 21:50
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Hey Alms. . . I can understand your frustration at coming up with good ideas that you want to discuss and then having me or Laurent dismiss them with "won't be done for ages if at all, so we don't want to talk about it". Unfortunately I don't know what to do about it given the realities of the project. We don't have the ten-ish people and 3-5 active coders that we once did. We've basically got Larent, and a little bit of me.
I hope that I can convince you to come back, perhaps after a cooling off period. I think you're doing really good and interesting stuff, especially with the tech tree and scenario and all the playtesting for D8 and suggestions both before and after it. Shoot me an email if you want to discuss further.
Best Wishes,
Mark
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
The reason for leaving isn't about the slow pace of progress. I can live with that. In fact, I have no right to complain about it since I could very well be assisting with coding, but choose not to.
You see, the reason why I really don't want to get involved in the coding side is that after about 2 1/2 years of work on EIT, the last thing I want to do is do it for another 2 1/2 years. When I was working on EIT, I'd get so involved with the project from time to time, that some months, I'd come home from work, work on the game all night, and then go to work the next day... all week long. I'd sleep on the weekends, and even then, I'd not get much sleep.
The reason I'm leaving Clash, however, is the, "If you're not coding it, you, your thoughts and your ideas, are insignificant" attitude that pervades this project. I suspect this is the same reason that Clash has never had a serious artist stick around for more than a few weeks. Anything regarding art is simply looked down upon as though it is the most disgusting and vile creation ever envisioned. Sadly, most people here don’t seem to realize that the artwork is the first thing people see, and most people don’t look beyond that. If they take one look at the artwork and don’t like it, why would they stick around to play the game? Much less playtest it?
In particular, I can point to one post that put the final nail in the coffin. Here. I’d explain why, but explanations are a pointless endeavor here, so I’ll just leave it at that.
|
|
| |
|
|
Chieftain
|
Feb 2003
time: 22:18
| |
|
|
Given the size of squares, realistic modelling of nomadic civilisations wouldn't involve the movement of people from square to square as the movement would be within the square given the scale.
I see a linear spectrum between tribes and empires, with no logical cut off. Therefore it is only fair to treat all civs equally and not call some "minor civs" or "barbarians", which both seem awefully derogatry terms.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Hi demipomme:
You may be thinking of hunter-gatherers. Nomadic peoples can IIRC migrate by as much as 1000+ miles from winter to summer areas. That's something like 15 squares at the default size. But for the first implementation we could certainly restrict them to a single square.
We'll probably try the "everyone's a civ" approach first since its easier anyway. I agree that it would be best to have it that way, but there may be issues with AI consuming clock cycles that might make us draw a distinction between certain levels of civ.
|
|
| |
|
|
LDiCesare
|
|
  |
|
King
Ashes
|
Jan 2001
time: 22:18
| |
|
|
I want to explain why I don't like minor civs. Such a thing exists in galciv. They are useful only for taking their planets and making some small trade. I don't think they add much to the game. In fact, when one minor civ has killed all the other civs except you, you win, becuase the most powerful civ in the world is "minor".
All civs can spawn other civs under the current model (check riots model). I just can't see what a minor civ different from a regular civ adds to the game. If you want it minor, give it much less population than the surrounding civs and it will be quite unable to compete, so I don't think it's needed.
I know I am not good at communication, thus the "If you're not coding it, you, your thoughts and your ideas, are insignificant" feeling. But I think I have the right to disagree and not code something a single person wants when there hasn't been a consensus on the subject. Here alms said he wanted minor civs, I said I didn't. Mark hadn't spoken yet when I said this, and then alms decided I was considering his input insignificant. So do I have a right to state my opinion too? On the tech part, why would all civs start with the exact same knowledge level anyway? They haven't in any of the civ game except maybe the ctp series. Ways to do the same thing (low population, not agressive civs) exist without coding a special case in the civ part but ptting this in tech effects.
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
I want to explain why I don't like minor civs. Such a thing exists in galciv. They are useful only for taking their planets and making some small trade. I don't think they add much to the game. In fact, when one minor civ has killed all the other civs except you, you win, because the most powerful civ in the world is "minor". |
Explanations are always good…
I referred to them as “minor civs” only to focus people’s attention on the fact that these are the “filler” population that has been a part of Clash design since day one, as far as I know. But what I’m describing is very different from what galactic civs does (although I’ve never played the game, I know the type of “minor civ” you describe). What they use is effectively normal civs, which have been restricted to the point of being nothing but cannon fodder. These minor civs are mere land (planets in this case) for the taking. As for winning the game if all major civs, but yours are destroyed, that’s just plain ludicrous and I would never support such a thing.
Natives are not that type of “minor civ” however. They are the settled (not nomadic) tribes or independent villages, towns and cities that covered much of the ancient world. To do this with the “everyone is a civ” approach would require thousands of civs, most of which would be 1-tile civs. In effect, they are a civ (or at least a type of civ), with special qualities, much like Barbarians were a civ with special qualities in all civ games to date. You’ve played civ with Barbarians before, haven’t you? Natives are an advanced Barbarian model, if you want to look at it that way.
So, there are really just 3 main points to the “natives” idea:
Natives cover every land tile on the map. (I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact that people covered much of the world.)
Natives produce mass migrations. (I don’t think anyone would dispute that this occurred more times than I’d care to cite either.)
When under attack, Natives can form into a cohesive empire (formation of a new civilization).*
*Of the three, this is perhaps the least historical and it’s a bit more game-like than realistic. Without it though, you are left with what you don’t want from Galactic Civs, cannon fodder, or at least large swaths of land for the taking with little to no resistance. With this feature in place, it helps to keep civs from exploding too fast into native lands. It is also the point I least like about the whole model, since it is a band-aid on an otherwise perfect way (at least in my opinion) to model all the 1-tile civs of the ancient world without resorting to thousands of 1-tile civs.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
All civs can spawn other civs under the current model (check riots model). I just can't see what a minor civ different from a regular civ adds to the game. If you want it minor, give it much less population than the surrounding civs and it will be quite unable to compete, so I don't think it's needed. |
Natives are not about spawning new civs…see the three points above…
And, again, in case it hasn’t been clear, Natives are not just a regular civ with restrictions, they are a whole new entity, I guess in a way they are a new type of civ, but at the same time, not really a civ either – they are Natives and really shouldn’t be compared to civs. There is only one “Native” civ in the game. It has no particular name, just as Barbarians in the Civ series. Natives are also not meant to be competition for civilizations, but rather, like Barbarians, a flavor element to the game, though a much more realistic and sophisticated flavor element than Barbarians are.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
I know I am not good at communication, thus the "If you're not coding it, you, your thoughts and your ideas, are insignificant" feeling. But I think I have the right to disagree and not code something a single person wants when there hasn't been a consensus on the subject. Here alms said he wanted minor civs, I said I didn't. Mark hadn't spoken yet when I said this, and then alms decided I was considering his input insignificant. So do I have a right to state my opinion too? |
Apparently, I’m not as good at communicating as I thought I was either, otherwise I wouldn’t have to explain myself so much after an initial posting. I know I do have a tendency to believe some things to be so blatantly obvious as to not be worth mentioning only to find out later that no one but me found the things to be blatantly obvious. I’m working on that.
Consensus has always been there for this type of thing to be a part of Clash, though there wasn’t consensus on this particular implementation of it.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
On the tech part, why would all civs start with the exact same knowledge level anyway? They haven't in any of the civ game except maybe the ctp series. |
A level of 0 implies no knowledge what-so-ever in that tech, whereas starting with a level of 0.1 implies a very low level of knowledge. Given that fact, civs would start with the exact same knowledge level if, as I described elsewhere, a tech level like Agriculture 0.1, for example, was a prerequisite to being a civ in the first place (it would be no fun to attain this prerequisite from being nomadic to settled, therefore everyone should start at a level higher than 0 – the same level). Infrastructure is another example that shouldn’t start at 0. Settled civs can build huts and other small items of infrastructure, therefore they have some knowledge in the field.
The second use for the function would be to set up an evenly matched scenario for multiplayer games, though this could be done using the current method on a civ-by-civ basis, placing the start level in the technology tag simply makes it easier to do. But, perhaps the most important reason to add this feature, especially such an easy-to-add and relatively small feature, is that some scenario designer, sometime in the future will almost certainly find a great use for it (that goes for any feature, not just this one).
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
Ways to do the same thing (low population, not aggressive civs) exist without coding a special case in the civ part but putting this in tech effects. |
This sentence makes little sense to me. It almost seems you are saying there is a way to model “minor civs” using tech effects.
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
So what you're advocating is having minor civs (weak civs, but still civs none-the-less) and major civs. This was something I wanted to avoid personally. If you're just a weak version of other civilizations, you're still a civilization, IMO, whereas what I wanted out of the Natives was to model the masses of tribal peoples that covered the world.
Let's use Gaul as an example.
You're saying that we treat Gaul as a civ, just like any other, only it has very low population density, thus low tech, low economic and military power, correct?
While I say, that Gaul is not a civ. It does have low population density, low tech, low economic and military power, but it is not like other civs.
Using history as a guide, which is more correct, a unified, centralized, civ-like Gaul, or a disorganized, decentralized, native-like Gaul? Well, when the Romans began settling the area what occurred? The Gallic people were either absorbed or displaced. Sound familiar? Then the Romans stepped-up their settling, in Clash terms – state-sponsored settling began, eventually moving in legions to “pacify”, or conquer*, the Gauls. When the pacification began, what occurred? The Gallic tribes united and tried to fight off the invaders, eventually succumbing to Rome. Score 2 for the Natives, 0 for civs.
*Although I don’t think I ever explicitly said it, it has always been my intention that Natives can be conquered as well, which may not have been apparent since I stated that the military units of a civ can freely walk across Native tiles without changing the ownership. This would require a separation of the ‘move’ and ‘conquer’ commands that currently exist as a single ‘Move’ command, because a civ cannot declare war on Natives since they are not a centralized civ.
Mass Migrations aren’t really a part of Clash’s ‘civ’ definition currently, so I can’t really compare on the third big point. In fact, I’ll concede that they can probably be done just as easily with civs or natives.
**I’d like to bring attention to the term “civ” here as well, which may or may not be a contributing factor to some of the confusion. It is such a loose and malleable term that I really dislike its use, in Clash and other games of this type as well. When I think of what a player in these games does, what he is in control of is an Empire, not a civilization, as a civilization is, by definition, a state of development rather than an entity. So when I say, “Gaul is not a civ” for example, what I’m really saying is Gaul is not an Empire (you can also substitute Nation, State or any other term you’re comfortable with there if you don’t like empire). Try replacing the term 'civ' with 'empire' in the above.
|
|
| |
|
|
Chieftain
|
Feb 2003
time: 22:18
| |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by alms66 Using history as a guide, which is more correct, a unified, centralized, civ-like Gaul, or a disorganized, decentralized, native-like Gaul? Well, when the Romans began settling the area what occurred? The Gallic people were either absorbed or displaced. Sound familiar? Then the Romans stepped-up their settling, in Clash terms – state-sponsored settling began, eventually moving in legions to “pacify”, or conquer*, the Gauls. When the pacification began, what occurred? The Gallic tribes united and tried to fight off the invaders, eventually succumbing to Rome. |
The Gaul example could be modelled with one square civs. A few of these are taken out by Roman settlers, then the rest realise what is going on and form an alliance. That alliance is then defeated by Rome. Does this not model what happened to the level of accuracy desired?
The advantages of a one-square civ system are:
-no different rules for natives
-the potential for any one of these one civ squares to take over neighbouring squares, gain momentum and become a powerful empire
The disadvantages of this system are:
-you'll need deep blue for game to run at an enjoyable speed
(this becomes significantly reduced if we make them two square civs)
|
|
| |
|
|
Prince
Louisiana
|
Oct 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
One thing I'm still uneasy with is calling them all Natives. |
Why? I settle on Natives because I didn't like the terms Barbarians, Minor Civs, etc. People who lived in an area before an empire conquered it have almost always been referred to as "The Natives", therefore I think it suits well.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
Why not have different ethnic groups and let them be "uncivilized" then? (this is a very ugly and unfit word I know but I can't find a better one). |
This is basically what Natives are, an uncivilized EG, the only difference being that I've lumped them all and called them Natives, whereas you seem to want to split them up and call them Native Europeans, Native Asians, Native Africans, etc., for example. I don't see any problem with splitting natives into various groups, but having them as a single entity is much easier to implement, and I was hoping  to push this to the top, or near the top, of the list of things to do.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
So we'd have diplomatic relationships with nationalities rather than civs, but nationalities without a civ would be limited to diplomatic options of war/peace only. |
So, Civs have full relations available, but Natives only have war/peace? I was originally thinking there was no need for explicit war/peace, since Natives aren't unified until they spawn a civ, then they start out at war, but have full options open to them.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
But having a "Gaul" ethnic group is not really more satisfying than the "Natives" because Gauls were just celts and didn't feel particularly united before the invasion. Celts from the other side of the Rhine were the same as the Gauls of the west... |
'Gauls' is just the Roman term for 'Celts'. The two terms are fairly interchangable IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
Thus changing the proposal, (or understanding it better?), you'd have natives when the square is not owned by a civ. If it gets conquered, the conquered natives take on a new name. This name can spread to the natives around the conquered square. These can then start riotting and forming a new civ if unhappy enough. |
I think you're understanding it better. Originally I was thinking that the Natives that are conquered would either seek to move in with other Natives nearby or be absorbed through cultural assimilation by the conquering EG (Civ), though not instantly. Treating them as a "Native EG" would be vastly simpler than naming them as they are conquered, though forcing them to riot to spawn a new civ would allow the reuse of an existing game element rather than coding a new one.
quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
Beware also that ethnic groups migrate from and into provinces notwithsttanding borders (though we plan to put limits on liberty of movement so you can block emigration or immigration), so we'd have mixes of natives and non natives anyway in unsettled squares. |
When a civ's population migrates to a square with Natives, then that square is changed to the ownership of the civ in question. You could put some sort of limitation on it, such as the civ must outnumber the natives in order for ownership to take place. You also show another good aspect here, by showing that Natives will migrate into a civ's territory. Natives by their nature will be "uncivilized" and "uneducated" compared to the civs on the map, and this will therefore pose a problem for the civs (at least it should lower the overall education level, and thus RP output).
|
|
| |
|
|
King
St. Louis
|
Sep 1999
time: 16:18
| |
|
< | |
|
|
