Georgian Nazis!

[Lonestar]

I hate those guys, the worst kind of Nazis!

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html

Suspected Nazi War Criminal Found In Metro Atlanta

LAWRENCEVILLE, Ga. -- Nazi hunters have tracked a suspected World War II concentration camp guard to Lawrenceville.

Members of the Justice Department's elite Nazi tracking force said Paul Henss, 85, served as a prison guard and attack dog handler at the notorious Dachau and Buchenwald Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany.

"It is not 100% true, what they charge me," said Henss Monday afternoon. Henss appeared confused as he tried to answer a barrage of questions from reporters Monday afternoon.

The Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security have asked an immigration judge in Atlanta to deport Henss.

Officials said Henss entered the United States in 1955 after concealing his concentration camp service.

The document says Henss admitted on March 13 that he served as an SS guard at Dachau and Buchenwald for two to three months each as a dog handler.

When asked by a Channel 2 reporter, "Did you see dogs or did you train dogs to attack prisoners who tried to escape?" Henss paused for a while, appeared confused and then said, "Sure, we trained them in Berlin."

Paperwork filed by the Criminal Division’s Office of Special Investigations (OSI) and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) said Henss joined the Hitler Youth organization in Germany in 1934 as a 12 or 13-year-old boy and joined the Nazi Party in September 1940.

In early 1941, Henss volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS and became an SS dog handler in 1942 after serving in the elite Waffen SS combat unit “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.”

Investigators also said that Henss taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape.

Henss himself is also accused of personally guarding prisoners and labor details with an attack dog.

"When somebody run away, they supposed to catch them," Henss said. He then said he, "Didn't do anything, the dogs were just trained like that."

“Hundreds of thousands of persons were confined under horrific conditions at Dachau and Buchenwald on the basis of their race, religion, national origin or political opinion,” said Assistant Attorney General Alice S. Fisher of the Criminal Division in a release.

“By commencing these proceedings against a man who participated in the victimization of those who were interned there, the Justice Department continues to make good on its pledge to ensure that the United States does not become a sanctuary for human rights violators.”

“The SS committed mass murder at Dachau and Buchenwald and subjected thousands of inmates to slave labor, starvation, grotesque medical experimentation, and torture,” said OSI Director Eli M. Rosenbaum, whose office investigated the case.

Henss said he didn't know about the mass extermination of Jews and other prisoners. "This was in 1942, I didn't know nothing about what they were going to do, especially with the Jews, I didn't know nothing about it," Henss told reporters.

“The brutal concentration camp system could not have functioned without the determined efforts of SS men such as Paul Henss, who, with a vicious attack dog, stood between these victims and the possibility of freedom.”

The case against Henss is the first case in Georgia that the Office of Special Investigation has handled, said Jaclyn Lesch, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington.

No court date has been set for Henss, she said.

[Proteus_MST]

The people that can be hunted and caught by Nazi hunters are slowly dying out

But this one sound like a very small fish. Just a little pawn in the brutal terror system Adolf Hitler erected.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ogie and I have a job to do. We'll be right back .

[Shrapnel12]

I think war criminals need to be punished as much as the next guy, but how does merely being a guard at a camp qualify you as a war criminal? Did he personally brutalize prisoners? Since when is using dogs to capture "criminals" (for lack of a better word, I merely mean capture people you want to detain) a crime? Or was he letting them tear the prisoner to pieces or somehow else torture them?

Merely being a guard is not enough to condemn these people in my opinion. So this guy joins the army to serve his country and his superior officer says to go guard prisoners in this camp. What was he supposed to do, say no? They'd put a bullet in his head. In fact right now we're using the "I was ordered to" defense in Iraq for soldiers who have killed innocent civilians there. At least those soldiers could disobey an order without getting shot for it. Why don't we prosecute all the citizens of the villages that were nearby for war crimes too? They surely knew what was going on but did nothing. If you saw a brutal horror and you knew the same would happen to you if you tried to stop it, would you be so quick to rise up? We're talking terror none of us have ever faced, not just your life would be at risk, but that of your family as well. It should be proven that this guard was guilty of some direct crime against prisoners other then just making sure they didn't escape before he is punished for a war crime.

[Riesstiu IV]

Force him to become a Rabbi.

[VetLegion]

Members of the Justice Department's elite Nazi tracking force said Paul Henss, 85,

Elite force?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Or was he letting them tear the prisoner to pieces or somehow else torture them?

I think that's the concern. Or that he trained the dogs to attack prisoners ("catch them" my ass!)

[Japher]

I say we turn him over to Michael Vick

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
Merely being a guard is not enough to condemn these people in my opinion. So this guy joins the army to serve his country and his superior officer says to go guard prisoners in this camp.

He didn't join the army (Heer). He joined the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (one had to be a fairly committed Nazi to be accepted, it wasn't a conscript unit), then volunteered to transfer to camp guard duties. He also trained dog handlers. One would presume (there is a lot of historical documentation to back this up) that SS Totenkopfverbande dog handlers (and their dogs), used slightly different procedures and had slightly different rules than, say, your average municipal police K-9 unit.

What was he supposed to do, say no? They'd put a bullet in his head.

He was supposed to not say "Pick me, pick me! ."

Why don't we prosecute all the citizens of the villages that were nearby for war crimes too? They surely knew what was going on but did nothing.

There's a difference between being a bystander and being a willing, ideologically committed participant.

We're talking terror none of us have ever faced, not just your life would be at risk, but that of your family as well.

Ah, yes, the terror of being one of Eicke's "elite within an elite" in Nazi Germany.

It should be proven that this guard was guilty of some direct crime against prisoners other then just making sure they didn't escape before he is punished for a war crime.

He is being deported. He lied on his immigration paperwork. That is enough for deportation.

He should be deported to Israel.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
I think war criminals need to be punished as much as the next guy, but how does merely being a guard at a camp qualify you as a war criminal? Did he personally brutalize prisoners? Since when is using dogs to capture "criminals" (for lack of a better word, I merely mean capture people you want to detain) a crime? Or was he letting them tear the prisoner to pieces or somehow else torture them?

Merely being a guard is not enough to condemn these people in my opinion. So this guy joins the army to serve his country and his superior officer says to go guard prisoners in this camp. What was he supposed to do, say no? They'd put a bullet in his head. In fact right now we're using the "I was ordered to" defense in Iraq for soldiers who have killed innocent civilians there. At least those soldiers could disobey an order without getting shot for it. Why don't we prosecute all the citizens of the villages that were nearby for war crimes too? They surely knew what was going on but did nothing. If you saw a brutal horror and you knew the same would happen to you if you tried to stop it, would you be so quick to rise up? We're talking terror none of us have ever faced, not just your life would be at risk, but that of your family as well. It should be proven that this guard was guilty of some direct crime against prisoners other then just making sure they didn't escape before he is punished for a war crime.

As has already been commented, there is one moral dfference between being a conscript and a SS volunteer. As for being "merely" a guard...guards are incapable of abuse? Western democracies have problems with guards acting up, you're honestly saying the gorram SS isn't actively mistreating guys in the camps?(you know, when they aren't tossing them in the ovens)

[Patroklos]

He didn't join the army (Heer). He joined the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (one had to be a fairly committed Nazi to be accepted, it wasn't a conscript unit), then volunteered to transfer to camp guard duties. He also trained dog handlers. One would presume (there is a lot of historical documentation to back this up) that SS Totenkopfverbande dog handlers (and their dogs), used slightly different procedures and had slightly different rules than, say, your average municipal police K-9 unit.

There is so much wrong with that paragraph it is not even worth it

[MichaeltheGreat]

You felt it was worth it enough to post.

[Patroklos]

He didn't join the army (Heer).

Correct, but only accidently on your part. But then again, nobody could just join the Heer during the war.

He joined the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (one had to be a fairly committed Nazi to be accepted, it wasn't a conscript unit),

One could not join the Leibstandarte any more that someone can join the 3rd Armored Division. Germany had a national military pool. You were drafted into the Wehrmacht, of which every service received a specific portion of recruits by law to include the Waffen SS. The SS was a conscript force, and was that way long before the war began.

The Liebstandarte was a conscript formation from no later than when it was increased to Division strength just after the French campaign.

Furthermore, unlike the majority of Heer formations SS units did not always have a "home barracks" from which to draw recruits. In the Heer, assuming you were not allotted to another service, you would be assigned to a formation based out of your home area. Germany went to great lengths to maintain this as long as possible as they thought being around your own was good for morale and unit cohesion. The SS, while there were exceptions, did not follow this policy. The 1st SS Panzer Division most certainly did not as they were a guard formation originally and had no greater link to any particular geographic region than where their original barracks were located outside Berlin prior to the war, which was arbitrary.

then volunteered to transfer to camp guard duties.

Where does it say he volunteered? In any case, Nazi chasers/prosecutors have gotten in trouble/lost cases before trying to use guard assignment as proof of war crimes. It is a common known fact that Waffen SS soldiers, and sometimes Heer soldiers, were assigned camp guard duty while recovering form injuries and then sent right back to the front when healed.

Not saying most were not scumbags, but guard duty in and of itself is not proof of anything but guard duty.

One would presume (there is a lot of historical documentation to back this up) that SS Totenkopfverbande dog handlers (and their dogs), used slightly different procedures and had slightly different rules than, say, your average municipal police K-9 unit.

I doubt it, how would the training differ? Unless you can teach a dog to identify a Jew from Guard having it ruthlessly attack any human would be counter productive, as a dog handler especially. I suppose you could teach them to attack people wearing camp uniforms but I suspect they were trained just like any other "attack" dog.

The only question that has to be asked and proven is as a dog handler/guard did he use them in the manner being assumed. The OP provides no such proof. In fact, it doesn't even accuse him of anything other than being a guard with a dog.

I am not saying he didn’t do what they said, but the OP doesn’t convince me.

[Shrapnel12]

Let me be clear in that I'm not taking any position other then what Patrolos said:

...but guard duty in and of itself is not proof of anything but guard duty.

I do not know if this guy is guilty of anything worse or not. I do not know how one became a concentration camp guard in Germany during WWII. If people are saying, "Oh he was a guard, shoot him", then I have a problem with that. If people are saying, "He was a guard and he killed these people and/or tortured these people.", then I say shoot him.

As for deportation, why deport him to Israel? Is he an Israeli citizen? He should be deported to the country he is a citizen of, then that country and Israel can disuss extradition based on actual facts and proof, not a kneejerk, emotional need for revenge.

[Lonestar]

Hey Shrapnel and Pat, it says in the article that:

In early 1941, Henss volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS and became an SS dog handler in 1942 after serving in the elite Waffen SS combat unit “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.”

And the Goddamn Waffen-SS made no secret of it's actions and philosophies, so it isn't like he was all "dear me! You say you round up the Jews and kill them? I didn't know that happened when I joined the armed part of the Nazi Apparatus!"

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose. A pity our only option is deportation.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Where does it say he volunteered? In any case, Nazi chasers/prosecutors have gotten in trouble/lost cases before trying to use guard assignment as proof of war crimes. It is a common known fact that Waffen SS soldiers, and sometimes Heer soldiers, were assigned camp guard duty while recovering form injuries and then sent right back to the front when healed.

Not saying most were not scumbags, but guard duty in and of itself is not proof of anything but guard duty.

I already pointed out where in the article he volunteered.

When asked by a Channel 2 reporter, "Did you see dogs or did you train dogs to attack prisoners who tried to escape?" Henss paused for a while, appeared confused and then said, "Sure, we trained them in Berlin."

And there we see him affirming that he trained dogs to attack prisoners.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Hey Shrapnel and Pat, it says in the article that:

And the Goddamn Waffen-SS made no secret of it's actions and philosophies, so it isn't like he was all "dear me! You say you round up the Jews and kill them? I didn't know that happened when I joined the armed part of the Nazi Apparatus!"

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose. A pity our only option is deportation.

The Waffen SS was a military force.
Although many Waffen SS units commited war crimes they didn´t make adverts kind of: "Join the Waffen SS, travel foreign countries and meet many jews and kill them".

If you volunteered for the Waffen SS it would rather be because they retained some kind of Elite status as a fighting force and not because you thought that this way you could live out your Antisemitism, Sadism or whatever.

It was in this kind different of the SS Totenkopf which guarded the Concentration and Extermination camps (although often a steady transfer took place between SS Totenkopf and Waffen SS)

[Shrapnel12]

I still don't see that he volunteered to guard a concentration camp however. Also when saying he trained dogs to attack prisoners, my assumption is escaping prisoners... oh wait it's not an assumption it's in the article too Attack prisoners doesn't equal torture prisoners.

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose. A pity our only option is deportation.

With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless.

[Arrian]

Being "biased" against the SS, how terrible...

-Arrian

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


The Waffen SS was a military force.
Although many Waffen SS units commited war crimes they didn´t make adverts kind of: "Join the Waffen SS, travel foreign countries and meet many jews and kill them".

No, you just had to be True Blue Nazis(until they started getting the pick of Conscripts after halfway through when fighting on the Eats Front meant they had to stop with their primary activity of killing civilians and start fighting people who could shoot back)

If you volunteered for the Waffen SS it would rather be because they retained some kind of Elite status as a fighting force and not because you thought that this way you could live out your Antisemitism, Sadism or whatever.

If you volunteered for the Waffen SS you had to be a Nazi, which by it's nature means you had to be anti-semitic or a Sadist. If you joined just for "kicks" then that meant you were at least complicit in the actions the Nazis took, even if you that wasn't the specific reason. This wasn't a big honking surprise, the SS was the armed apparatus of the Nazi party, and it isn't like it didn't occur to anyone what the Nazis were doing to the undesirables.

It was in this kind different of the SS Totenkopf which guarded the Concentration and Extermination camps (although often a steady transfer took place between SS Totenkopf and Waffen SS)

Annndddd...he still ended up being a prison guard at Dachau.

Claiming complete ignorance of what the camps were for is a bullshit defense - it just shows that he actively ignored the implications of what he saw. Unless he's simply lying about that.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
I still don't see that he volunteered to guard a concentration camp however.

What a fantastic and irrelevant comment to my response to Patroklos *****in' about not seeing where he volunteered for the SS.

Also when saying he trained dogs to attack prisoners, my assumption is escaping prisoners...

Damn those escaping Prisoners trying to escape death camps!

oh wait it's not an assumption it's in the article too Attack prisoners doesn't equal torture prisoners.

You know, we booted Guardsman out of the service for less. And Volunteering for the SS is as good as signing on to KILL ME SOME JOOS!

With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless.

Damn my Bias against the Nazi Party! I guess I can't say anything bad against David Duke because I have a bias against the KKK?

[Riesstiu IV]

Originally posted by Arrian
Being "biased" against the SS, how terrible...

-Arrian

Yeah it is terrible. I've heard a lot of good things about the Chevrolet Super Sport option package.

[Wezil]

I'm having a hard time mustering any sympathy for this guy. I don't care if he is aged and I don't buy his "Who me?" position. Deport him.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Correct, but only accidently on your part. But then again, nobody could just join the Heer during the war.

Semantics. The point was he wasn't some draftee slob who was in a regular military unit, he was a volunteer in a unit which was, at the time, still selective as to who it would take, on the basis of the selectee's ideological fitness, among other things.

One could not join the Leibstandarte any more that someone can join the 3rd Armored Division.

Yes, the Hitler Jugend pedigree and party membership helped qualify him to be accepted.

The SS was a conscript force, and was that way long before the war began.

The Waffen-SS as a whole, yes. The LSSAH not until later when manpower needs dictated. The SS-TV was not a conscript unit at the relevant time.

The Liebstandarte was a conscript formation from no later than when it was increased to Division strength just after the French campaign.

It wasn't designated a division until after the Balkans campaign, and was a division in name only at the time of Barbarossa, as there was no time to reorganize or add manpower and equipment.

Edit - quote tags fixed.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
I still don't see that he volunteered to guard a concentration camp however.

SS-TV was not a conscripted force. It was considered an elite within the SS, and remained throughout the war as a smallish, ideologically committed force. Not all camp guards were SS-TV, as Patroklos noted, but that change developed late in the war, not in 1942. This ******* served at Buchenwald and Dachau, which were centerpieces of the whole camp system.

It's not like he was some poor slob on limited duty who was stuck guarding some minor backwoods camp in 1944-45 while the real SS-TV guards fled in advance of the Russkie hordes.

[Patroklos]

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose.

I already told you why it is highly suspect that he "volunteered" for the Waffen SS. Unless he was already a member of the another SS organization. Even Hilter Youth were subject to the same legislated recruiting/conscription regulations the rest of the fighting age men in Germany were. So unless the OP wants to elaborate, on the surface it appears they are exaggerating.

I already pointed out where in the article he volunteered.

No, you pointed out where the article in all likelihood falsely characterized his initial joining of the armed forces (which I challenged, not ignored), NOT his volunteering for dog handling duty.

And there we see him affirming that he trained dogs to attack prisoners.

It is not a crime to do that, we do that, every country in the world probably does that. The crime would be to actually use them inappropriately. If all they can do is link him to a dog training school in Berlin I am afraid these prosecutors are going to have a tough time indeed.

(until they started getting the pick of Conscripts after halfway through when fighting on the Eats Front meant they had to stop with their primary activity of killing civilians and start fighting people who could shoot back)

They were getting conscripts long before this guy joined Lonestar.

[quote] If you volunteered for the Waffen SS you had to be a Nazi, which by it's nature means you had to be anti-semitic or a Sadist. quote]

If you were a member of any government apparatus you had to swear an oath to Hitler. I am pretty sure German WWII era firemen were not well know for their war crime participation.

What a fantastic and irrelevant comment to my response to Patroklos *****in' about not seeing where he volunteered for the SS.

I didn't say the article didn't say he didn't volunteer, I said your article is most probably wrong, especially since we are talking about 1941 here.

And you also, wrongly asserted he volunteered for dog handling, which you should admit.

Semantics. The point was he wasn't some draftee slob who was in a regular military unit, he was a volunteer in a unit which was, at the time, still selective as to who it would take, on the basis of the selectee's ideological fitness, among other things.

No MtG. Do you honestly thing that when the 1st SS went from regimental to division stenght (3000 to 20,000+) at the end of 1940-41, they were still all 6' blond haired blue eyed Aryians? Especially since three other SS units made the same transition during the same year and change.

In any case, he is not being deported for being in the Waffen SS or a member of the 1st SS Panzer Division. He is being deported for torturing prisoners with dogs, which the article barely even mentions. I would like to know why it is so fact light before I accuse a man of being one of the worst ****ers history has ever known, sues me.

Yes, the Hitler Jugend pedigree and party membership helped qualify him to be accepted.

Not to any meaningful degree, not in 1941 anyway. Are you going to blame a kid for being sucked into what was the 1930's version of the German Boy Scouts?

The LSSAH not until later when manpower needs dictated. The SS-TV was not a conscript unit at the relevant time.

Wrong about the LSSAH. Right about the SS-TV, though again nobody said anywhere (except lonestar’s ranting) that he volunteered for that, for all we know he was assigned there kicking and screaming.

It wasn't designated a division until after the Balkans campaign, and was a division in name only at the time of Barbarossa, as there was no time to reorganize or add manpower and equipment.

Obviously the transition wasn't instantaneous. In any case, since this guy "volunteered" in 1941, he would not have gotten to the unit until long after Barbarossa.

This ******* served at Buchenwald and Dachau, which were centerpieces of the whole camp system.

Exactly, but that, as I bet you know, is not enough to prosecute him and maybe not enough to even deport him.

If anyone really thinks this guy is a **** tard, which hopefully isn't because of this woefully fact devoid article, you should be as concerned with the lack of detail in the charges and the witch hunt mentality as I am.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I already told you why it is highly suspect that he "volunteered" for the Waffen SS. Unless he was already a member of the another SS organization. Even Hilter Youth were subject to the same legislated recruiting/conscription regulations the rest of the fighting age men in Germany were. So unless the OP wants to elaborate, on the surface it appears they are exaggerating.

So, because he *might* have been a Heer conscript he isn't responsible when he DID volunteer *out* of the Heer to the Waffen SS? Classy defination there.

No, you pointed out where the article in all likelihood falsely characterized his initial joining of the armed forces (which I challenged, not ignored), NOT his volunteering for dog handling duty.

n

A volunteer for the SS is a Volunteer, even if he was intially a Heer conscript.

It is not a crime to do that, we do that, every country in the world probably does that. The crime would be to actually use them inappropriately. If all they can do is link him to a dog training school in Berlin I am afraid these prosecutors are going to have a tough time indeed.

Yeah, poor man used dogs to rip the flesh off of prisoners that had the audacity to try to escape rather than be gassed/worked to death/medically experimented on. Do you really not see the moral difference between training/using dogs for "normal" police duty and for the purposes of furthering the Final Solution? Where is your ethical clarity? Do you have any?

They were getting conscripts long before this guy joined Lonestar.

No, they were getting guys who were originally conscripts but volunteered for the whole SS thing because killing subhumans appealed to them.

I didn't say the article didn't say he didn't volunteer, I said your article is most probably wrong, especially since we are talking about 1941 here.

Wiki claims that the SS didn't introduce conscription until the end of 43, which would seem to dispute that statement.

And you also, wrongly asserted he volunteered for dog handling, which you should admit.

Where? I've been harping on the SS volunteering he did.

Wrong about the LSSAH. Right about the SS-TV, though again nobody said anywhere (except lonestar’s ranting) that he volunteered for that, for all we know he was assigned there kicking and screaming.

Cute. It says so in the article that he volunteered, and you have provided no evidence, none, to disprove that he didn't other than "uh....national manpower pool. Doesn't count."

[Shrapnel12]

Originally posted by Arrian
Being "biased" against the SS, how terrible...

-Arrian

You get an for that. You mistake me if you think I'm taking the side of Nazis. My point is that I simply think that there should be a greater burden of proof other then guilt by association. I admitted once already my ignorance of this situation and I'm trying to get you guys to give me valid information, but all I'm getting is blind hatred, even if justified. Some people want revenge for wrongs done and rightly so, but sometimes our desire for justice or revenge has collateral damage. Our thread author has a credibility problem because of the emotion in his posts.

I suggest you stop assuming I know everything of what you are talking about. Start by showing me that this Waffen SS is what you say. Just because a few people in a unit do bad things doesn't make the whole unit bad. Show me that this was not an ordinary military unit and made especially for the bad guys. This is the first time I've even heard of the Waffen SS. I only know of the SS and indeed they have a bad reputation, so you won't have a hard time convincing me. In fact, it's because these guys are so bad that I'm having a problem. Just like terroists in the ME will kill and force compliance from the general populace, I have to believe that some people in Germany were forced to do things they did in WWII. Nazis are at least as bad as Islamic jihadists.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12


You get an for that. You mistake me if you think I'm taking the side of Nazis. My point is that I simply think that there should be a greater burden of proof other then guilt by association. I admitted once already my ignorance of this situation and I'm trying to get you guys to give me valid information, but all I'm getting is blind hatred, even if justified. Some people want revenge for wrongs done and rightly so, but sometimes our desire for justice or revenge has collateral damage. Our thread author has a credibility problem because of the emotion in his posts.

I suggest you stop assuming I know everything of what you are talking about. Start by showing me that this Waffen SS is what you say. Just because a few people in a unit do bad things doesn't make the whole unit bad. Show me that this was not an ordinary military unit and made especially for the bad guys. This is the first time I've even heard of the Waffen SS. I only know of the SS and indeed they have a bad reputation, so you won't have a hard time convincing me. In fact, it's because these guys are so bad that I'm having a problem. Just like terroists in the ME will kill and force compliance from the general populace, I have to believe that some people in Germany were forced to do things they did in WWII. Nazis are at least as bad as Islamic jihadists.

The SS were the armed part of the Nazi party. Not part of the Army. Which means that *drum roll* you had to literally be a Nazi in order to join, as opposed to being a poor schmuck in the Heer.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Patroklos
No MtG. Do you honestly thing that when the 1st SS went from regimental to division stenght (3000 to 20,000+) at the end of 1940-41, they were still all 6' blond haired blue eyed Aryians? Especially since three other SS units made the same transition during the same year and change.

Most of the actual augmentation of LSSAH to division strength didn't occur until the redesignation to a Panzergrenadier division in 1942. At the time of Barbarossa, in late June, 1941, LSSAH was around 10,800 men. The other SS formations were smaller, so at that, given the available manpower pool, the LSSAH was far from taking the barrel-scrapings needed after Kursk onward.

The article, however, states he volunteered in early 1941, so it's very likely that the LSSAH strength at the time was less than the 10,800 at the time of Barbarossa, especially if he joined prior to the augmentation of the infantry regiment to an effective brigade strength prior to the Balkans campaign in April.

Also, if this guy was the poor, innocent draft-bait you make him out to be, it's highly unlikely that he would have been able to get his ass off the eastern front (unless he had his million reichsmark wound ) to get to the SS-TV.

In any case, he is not being deported for being in the Waffen SS or a member of the 1st SS Panzer Division. He is being deported for torturing prisoners with dogs, which the article barely even mentions. I would like to know why it is so fact light before I accuse a man of being one of the worst ****ers history has ever known, sues me.

No, he is being deported for lying about his Nazi party and SS affiliation on his immigration paperwork. He was never eligible to be here in this country, so **** him.

Wrong about the LSSAH.

Not in early 1941. After the Kiev campaign and in the winter campaign, yes, standards were lessened somewhat, and the SS used conscript manpower, albeit generally the pick of the crop.

Right about the SS-TV, though again nobody said anywhere (except lonestar’s ranting) that he volunteered for that, for all we know he was assigned there kicking and screaming.

Why would he "be assigned kicking and screaming" to an elite organization which only took volunteers who met the necessary political and other criteria for approval? SS-TV never had a shortage of manpower, and never had to conscript members.

The addition of non-SS-TV camp guards with other SS and miscellaneous personnel occurred almost exclusively in two scenarios: secondary camps in occupied territories, and late in the war as SS-TV concentrated on carrying out the mass murder of prisoners or fled in the face of advancing allied forces.

In 1942 at Buchenwald and Dachau, neither of these conditions applied.

Obviously the transition wasn't instantaneous. In any case, since this guy "volunteered" in 1941, he would not have gotten to the unit until long after Barbarossa.

The transition didn't really take place in a meaningful way (with the pick of conscripts) until the LSSAH was rebuilt as a Panzergrenadier division in Normandy in 1942. The article says "early 1941" and Barbarossa was launched on June 22, with LSSAH not seeing any action until August.

Nothing in the timing stated in the article indicates against the ******* being a volunteer.

edit - more quote tags and unquoted stuff