quote: I think it would be useful for us, if its not too much work for you, to put up against each other the 120-scale units next to similar 64-pixel ones so we can compare what we're losing if we change the default size.

Well, you'll find that the units I've designed so far aren't too big to fit into a 64x32 tile. They are not much bigger that the standard Civ2 units.

I've put up for you a demo with my units and buildings on each different tile map. In the 64x32 tile, I've made it over a Civ2 map both with my original units and with these units "reduced" to a 85% of their actual size as well.

Well, take a look and see for yourselves:
www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

I'm looking forward to your comments.

80 wide does look good. Although I think the unit would need to be scaled down a little because:

1. Clash can have two opposing sides in the same square, so need to be able to squeeze in two.
2. Allow for larger chariots, etc., than the man-sized figures, like you pointed out.
3. Make it so the Power Circles, if we use them, can have a range of about 3 in diameter without looking like a ring around a guy's legs at the smaller end while not expanding to the square edge at the larger end.

These problems are of course even worse for example 4...

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-22-2001 10:15 PM 1. Clash can have two opposing sides in the same square, so need to be able to squeeze in two.

Are you really sure about that? 'Cause it will be almost imposible to do with big units such as chariots, catapults and tanks.

I'd better not have to scale down the units, since it's very difficult to make unit icons look good in a smaller size than that...

quote: One thing that would be helpful in the next revision is to put a civ-size unit on each sample also.

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-22-2001 10:15 PM 3. Make it so the Power Circles, if we use them, can have a range of about 3 in diameter without looking like a ring around a guy's legs at the smaller end while not expanding to the square edge at the larger end.

I actually think that you can have three different size Power Circles in a 80x40 tile. I've uploades an example to the web page. Go here:
http://www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

Look at #5. I've zoomed the pic to twice its size at #6 so you can all see it better.

The three closely-nested circles look really cool, but unfortunately that doesn't cover what they need to do functionally. First, if we use something like the circles, I think they need to be player color, so you can't use that to distinguish them (I don't think that was your intention anyway, but just to be sure ). Second, when there are alot of My-civ-color circles on the map, it won't be easy visually to tell the red one in your demos from the blue one. Third, it needs more than three levels, it really needs something like a Factor of 3 in diamater like I said earlier. That's because you need to have recognizable at least five or six gradiations between Very powerful TFs for the age, or relatively insignificant garisons. As currently defined a range of 3 in diameter lets us show a range of 9 in power, which is I think adequate.

On opposing figures in the same square. Well, IMO it would be cool to show that on the map. Gives the right visceral feel that my guys are Fighting someone! But Power Circles of different color in a single square would show there is a fight going on in a crude way (that's what's done in d4). I think offsetting the figures to the sides and/or top/bottom should work. Perhaps that's the next important thing to try. Take two chariots and see what size they can be and still both fit...

LGJ:

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-23-2001 06:54 AM The three closely-nested circles look really cool, but unfortunately that doesn't cover what they need to do functionally. First, if we use something like the circles, I think they need to be player color, so you can't use that to distinguish them (I don't think that was your intention anyway, but just to be sure ).

Yes, I know they must be player-color, I just tried that as an easy way for everybody to distinguish the three different circle levels.

quote: Second, when there are alot of My-civ-color circles on the map, it won't be easy visually to tell the red one in your demos from the blue one. Third, it needs more than three levels, it really needs something like a Factor of 3 in diamater like I said earlier. That's because you need to have recognizable at least five or six gradiations between Very powerful TFs for the age, or relatively insignificant garisons. As currently defined a range of 3 in diameter lets us show a range of 9 in power, which is I think adequate.

Ah, sorry, I hadn't understand you the first time, I thought you wanted three different levels of Power Circles. Sorry again, my English is poor, I'm afraid.

I'm not yet truly sure of understanding what you mean. I think you want the biggest circle to be three times bigger than the smallest one? I'm sorry for this, but I'd like to be really sure about how the Power Circle are going to be implemented.

quote: On opposing figures in the same square. Well, IMO it would be cool to show that on the map. Gives the right visceral feel that my guys are Fighting someone! But Power Circles of different color in a single square would show there is a fight going on in a crude way (that's what's done in d4). I think offsetting the figures to the sides and/or top/bottom should work. Perhaps that's the next important thing to try. Take two chariots and see what size they can be and still both fit...

quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai on 03-23-2001 12:24 AM WoW! I just checked out your new sets and i must say your cities kick a**!

He, he, thanks. I think that isometric view is the way to go for city icons. It's pretty easy and the result is always good.

quote: You think you can clear up some of the other stuff especially the forest?

quote: Originally posted by Fiera on 03-23-2001 12:22 PMI'm not yet truly sure of understanding what you mean. I think you want the biggest circle to be three times bigger than the smallest one?

Yes, that's it. The largest circle should be 3x as far across as the smallest one.

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-23-2001 07:06 PM On opposing figures. Well, lets try the alternatives, at least as much as you're willing to humor me .

Well, first I need to figure out how to make chariots small enough... This may take some time, let's see what I can do...

quote: Once we see the advantages and problems with each approach we will make the decision. And since much of the work looks like it will be yours, you get a Big vote in the decision!

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-23-2001 09:12 PM Hopefully you'll come up with the brainstorm that solves all our problems has been hiding from us in the past...

Hmm... I don't know, it's just an idea, but I think it needs some refining, so your comments will be very appreciated.

Trying to draw the chariots has reminded me of one of the major flaws I think the Power Circles system has. Power Circles are OK with infantry units, which are "vertical" unit icons, thus taking up only a few pixels of the tile surface. But what about more "horizontal" unit icons, like a chariot? In most cases they will fill a large portion of the tile surface, so the Power Circle will be difficult to see for the player, unless you depict the circle over the unit, wich will look very weird.

So this brings me the idea that Power Circles are only suitable for infantry units. I think that we should only use infantry units. That's aright, since with the current system, we are already symbolizing a whole Task Force by just one unit on the map. My proposal is one leap forward in this "representative" system. Also take in mind that, for most ages and cultures, mounted troops have had an equivalent type (of the same technology level) in foot troops. So if you want to depict a Scythian-like Task Force with Light Cavalry, you could show the Horde unit icon, and place a smaller icon in the upper right or left corner, depicting the Horses. We could make one of these icons for each type of cavalry (including modern day Tanks) and siege (catapults, cannons) unit. Of course, this would go only for ground units, since ships and planes would have to be depicted in the "traditional" way.

Here's an example. I've made the small icons very quickly and Ican work more on them but I think you'll get the idea. www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

The wheel next to the Phalanx depicts the presence of chariots in the TF.

So instead of showing a certain type of military unit as the graphic, we could show a generic soldier or even citizen from the culture and time perios that produced the unit. That would make it clear that the type of unit is represented by the icons and that the picture is a generic representation.

One very nice thing about this plan is that it lets us display the components of a task force. Look at the example that I managed to post after a harrowing fight with our school's arcane VAX system:
http://wcuvax1.wcu.edu/~RB22393/

Well, I can't say I really like either of the recent proposals . For some reason a guy on for with a little horse icon above him just doesn't really give the message cavalry to my brain . Personally it doesn't really bother me, at least in concept, if a horse figure were to extend beyond the power circle attached to it. It seems to me if the power circle were just to go down first and then have the chariot or whatever put on top of that, that it wouldn't be ideal, but wouldn't look that bad. To go with Fiera's style figures anything with a horse should be roughly facing the viewer, at a 45 degree angle or so. That was shorten the footprint of the horse so it wouldn't look quite so odd with a smaller power circle. However, I will certainly admit to my limited capacity in an artistic sense, so a test would be good. Fiera, would you be able to make or find a horse-based unit consistent with your style that you could put on top of a relatively small power circle so we could see what it looks like? And of course, it's not clear we will even have the power circles far in the future, so limiting the graphics at this stage due to a potential clash with the power circle seems premature.

The thing that I think the iconic representations both of you presented could be really useful for is in zoomed-out views. When it got to the point where one could barely resolve a figure, the icons could still be easily distinguishable.

I had one other idea regarding the graphics. At least it makes sense to make that if a TF is predominantly composed of one sort of unit, that the TF should be represented by an icon for that unit type. But sometimes TFs will be composed of roughly even amounts of several types. I thought for that sort of TF we could use a commander icon.

quote: But sometimes TFs will be composed of roughly even amounts of several types. I thought for that sort of TF we could use a commander icon.

quote: So instead of showing a certain type of military unit as the graphic, we could show a generic soldier or even citizen from the culture and time perios that produced the unit. That would make it clear that the type of unit is represented by the icons and that the picture is a generic representation.

Maybe we could have an option to show the task forces by using a commander graphic with the little icons above that figure. We can have one commander icon for each culture and time period, alpha-channeled to the controlling civ. The commander would represent the civ and task force and the icons would represent the units that make up the task force. At higher zoom levels, we can erase the commander graphic and use only the icons. At extreme zoom, there is room for one icon, a civ color indicator, and the power and movement bars.

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-24-2001 07:27 AM For some reason a guy on for with a little horse icon above him just doesn't really give the message cavalry to my brain .

Yes, that makes sense. I told you that I wasn't very confident with this idea myself, but I had to try.

quote: Personally it doesn't really bother me, at least in concept, if a horse figure were to extend beyond the power circle attached to it. It seems to me if the power circle were just to go down first and then have the chariot or whatever put on top of that, that it wouldn't be ideal, but wouldn't look that bad.

Yes, but what if you couldn't see the circle at all, specially if it's one of the smaller circles? We have to avoid that.

quote: To go with Fiera's style figures anything with a horse should be roughly facing the viewer, at a 45 degree angle or so.

Yes, that's the way to go, but it requires very good painting abilities.

quote: Fiera, would you be able to make or find a horse-based unit consistent with your style that you could put on top of a relatively small power circle so we could see what it looks like?

There aren't units of this kind that I know of in the Civ2 scn arena. As I said, it requires a lot of skill, so trying to make one of those seems really challenging and fun to me. Let's see what I come up with.

quote: And of course, it's not clear we will even have the power circles far in the future, so limiting the graphics at this stage due to a potential clash with the power circle seems premature.

Aestethically, the Power Circles are quite a good solution. I like them, they will give personality to Clash, so I want to find a consistent way to implement them.

quote: The thing that I think the iconic representations both of you presented could be really useful for is in zoomed-out views. When it got to the point where one could barely resolve a figure, the icons could still be easily distinguishable.

Yes, we can give a Chess-feel to all those crazy for pure strategy out there. They aren't really looking for fancy graphics, but for strategy.

quote: I had one other idea regarding the graphics. At least it makes sense to make that if a TF is predominantly composed of one sort of unit, that the TF should be represented by an icon for that unit type. But sometimes TFs will be composed of roughly even amounts of several types. I thought for that sort of TF we could use a commander icon.

Interesting idea, but I fear that, in the end, the map will end up filled with Commander units, which may be boring, unless we plan to include a lot of different commanders (as Richard suggested). We could have Alexander, Julius Caesar, El Cid, Pizarro, Wallenstein, Napoleon, Rommel, Patton, etc. Fun for the gamers and for me too.

quote: Thanks to both of you for all your hard work!

You're welcome, as long as we are all having a great time, I'll keep on helping Clash very gladly.

quote: Yes, but what if you couldn't see the circle at all, specially if it's one of the smaller circles? We have to avoid that.

Since the circles have a minimum diameter that will be something like 1/4 the way across the tile, and will extend "in front" of the unit figure, I don't think this will ever be a problem. Basically if the figure covers the circle then you know its not a very powerful TF, and its exact power probably isn't so important anyway. And you could always look in the TF Box, or whatever we have for it at a later stage, to see what the actual power is anyway if its that important.

So IMO when its important, you'll always be able to see enough of the circle to gauge rough power unless the TF is really weak.

I've got something that could be the right way to go for cavalry units. I will probably add it some details and try to refine it, but I think it already may serve for the purpose of seeing how the circles deal with these units.

Go to my Demos page to see it (#8):
www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

Another idea to make it look a little better would be to have the shadows to the back of the base of the unit. As if they were moving toward the sun, with the sun like it is in the summer at 16:00 or so. That will help in making sure the shadow doesn't blot out the front part of the circle.

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-25-2001 01:06 PM Fiera, it looks Great!

Good to hear you like it, but I really think I can make it look better, giving the unit more "contrast" and some small details. But I think that isn't really important now, is it? Are you planning to use a Cavalry unit in Demo 5? If so, what should it be like exactly?

quote: I think the next thing is to see what happens with a tank.

Bronze age chariots concern me even more. I've been tring, and it's really difficult to show a chariot with, say two horses, in a 45º angle, and still make it look so that the player know what the hell is it.

I may easily find some suitable tank icons out there, and at least we'll see what happens then.

quote: Another idea to make it look a little better would be to have the shadows to the back of the base of the unit. As if they were moving toward the sun, with the sun like it is in the summer at 16:00 or so. That will help in making sure the shadow doesn't blot out the front part of the circle.

I've always designed with the shadow to the front, for no particular reason, just because the original Civ2 were like that, I guess. But if the Civ2 artists chose mostly that kind of shadow view, I think it's 'cause it's less confusing. I'm not making too big shaows anyway, so I guess that's not really a problem, but I may give it a try, specialy when designing the chariot.

quote: Excellent job!

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-25-2001 06:58 PM We may have a horse unit in demo 5. It would probably be either spear or sword armed. So I think what you have is already fits well with what we might need. By demo 6 we should have a reasonable variety of ancient horsemounted units.

Well, I'll be sure to have the unit refined soon... I'll post the improved unit in the Unit Graphics thread when it's ready...

What I can ofer you right now is a Tank units demo. I've "stolen" a suitable tank icon made by Allard Höfelt. It was the one that covered a smallest tile surface, and if we want to have our own Tank icon, I think we have to make it in a similar way to this one.

Note that the size can't be consistent with the Infantry unit we already have. Tanks, and possibly chariots too, as well as planes and ships, need a reduced scale, but that's OK.

Take it a look here:
www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-25-2001 09:08 PM Are you basically happy with the visual impact? Its clearly not ideal with the tank as is, but IMO its not too bad.

It can be easily improved, I think. For example, we may add a long and menacing cannon to the tank, that will give the unit more impact, and won't really interfere with the circle, as it will be "elevated"...

The size and position of the icon is the best I could come up with, I think it still lets the player see the Power Circle, but it will be very difficult to fit two of those in just one tile.

I have a few ideas to deal with that problem. First, changing the view automatically when ever two TFs enter the same square, from a 80x40 tile, to a 120x60 tile (or maybe bigger), which will allow the player to have a better view of the "battle". Second would be changing automatically the unit icons from the graphics we are working with to the small icons that I proposed earlier. Richard has posted some ideas regarding those in his website.